[Ep. 414] Using Your Money to Build a Better Future for All with Kara Perez

Hello and welcome back to the More Money Podcast.

I’m your host, Jessica Moorhouse, and I’m so beyond thrilled to introduce my next guest because she is a very good friend of mine, and we also kind of have a special bond with both of our books.

I’m talking, of course, about Kara Perez, who I’ve known through the personal finance, like blogging community for, I’ve got to say, at least a decade.

I’m sure that’s true.

And what’s really cool is she has a new book coming out, or her first book coming out called Green Money, How to Reduce Waste, Build Wealth, and Create a Better Future for All.

But I’ve had a bit of an insider look into her writing this book because about this time last year, last fall 2023, she had gotten her book deal and she knew I was writing my book and we reconnected because I was kind of looking for an accountability partner.

And so was she, so she could start her book and I can help try to finish mine on time.

And so we got together every Monday for two to three hours, just virtually, you know, because I’m based in Toronto.

And at the time she was based out of North Carolina.

And we would just go online and chit chat and then write our books.

And honestly, if it weren’t for those Monday sessions, I don’t know if I would have made my book deadline.

It was very, very helpful.

And what’s crazy is she was able to write her book and half the time it took me.

And so her book is coming out before mine.

But I love it because then it means I can have her on my show early and talk about it because this is such a great book and I can’t wait for you to read it.

And in case you’re wondering, hmm, that name sounds so familiar, Kara Perez.

Has she been on the More Money Podcast before?

Absolutely she has.

I mean, about four years ago, but she was originally on the show for episode 224, January 2020.

So a lot has changed, a lot has happened.

But I mean, she’s still talking really about the same stuff, which I love.

She’s really very in line with her values, her vision for sharing the idea that sustainability and personal finance, they can go hand in hand, that’s not one or the other.

You can do both.

You can be that positive change that you want to see in the world.

You can build wealth and secure your own financial future.

And you don’t have to compromise.

You can absolutely do both.

And she offers tips and solutions and action steps on how to do that, how to use money as a tool to help yourself, help your community, help your family, help the world at large.

And we are in a climate crisis.

We are dealing with a lot right now in this world.

It can feel overwhelming and feel like there’s no way that little me could have an impact.

And the truth is, you can.

You can.

And so can your neighbors, so can your friends, so can your family.

If we all just do one thing, that will have a huge ripple effect.

And so that’s really ultimately what we’re going to be discussing in this episode.

And a little bit more about Kara.

She is the founder of Bravely Go, which is a sustainability focused financial education company, which really focuses on bringing actionable, intersectional and accessible financial education to people who never learned the language of money.

And she does a lot of writing outside of her own website.

She has been featured in places like the New York Times, Good Morning America, Forbes, NPR.

The list goes on and on.

And you may also have listened to a podcast you used to have a few years ago called The Fairer Sense.

And I think that is probably still available to listen to if you’re interested on any kind of podcast platform.

Anyways, we have a lot to discuss.

And of course, I’m giving away a copy of her book.

I will share more details about that at the end of this episode.

But without further ado, let’s get to that interview with Kara.

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Welcome, Kara, to the More Money Podcast.

I feel like you’ve been on my show before.

Yeah, I want to say like…

It’s a while ago.

Four years ago or something.

Okay, yeah.

So there we go.

Because I’m like, I cannot tell you when that was, but it felt like it’s like a long time ago.

A lot has happened, obviously, since that time, because now you have your first book out.

So excited.

Green Money, just like the poster in your background.

Love that.

Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me back.

Always a pleasure to be here.

Always thrilled to talk to you.

Yay.

Well, I’m super excited, especially to have you on the show, because I’ve had a little bit of an insider look into your book.

And so we, for people who don’t know, I feel like I’ve shared this maybe once or twice on social media, but we for, I think maybe it was starting last fall in 2023 fall, we kind of started a little accountability thing where we’d hang out on Mondays.

And it was amazing.

We would just like put our Zoom on or whatever it was, and we would just write our books together.

And really, I mean, and you had a tighter deadline than me.

Like for me, I was like at the end, I’m like, all right, I just have a, you know, a good couple months.

And you’re like, I have to you, how long did it take you to write this book?

Like in half the time that I had to quit?

Yeah, I think literally, I think half the time, they gave me five months, but I really only had four months because it took me the first month, I was like, oh, it’s fine.

And then I was like, oh my God, I haven’t written anything.

No, yeah, yeah, that is half the time.

It took me 10 months.

And you have this, I feel like the same amount of chapters in your book.

You had nine chapters, is that what yours is?

Yeah, yeah.

Yours was more research heavy, I think.

You did a lot of research.

And so I was able to finally, I was so excited.

I was waiting to fully dive into your book before we had our interview so everything would be fresh in my mind.

And it was such a, like felt so exciting to be able to read what you were working on, what we were working on together for so long.

And I had an idea of what it was, but it was so nice to be able to read it and really see what we were, what you were writing all those sessions.

And obviously, I loved it.

I knew I would.

But I think it’s such an exciting and important book, but more than that, very easy to get through.

I mean, I binged it over the weekend and I’ve read a few other books that are about sustainability and finance.

And sometimes it can be very kind of textbook-y, which is fine.

There’s a place for that too.

You really made it easy to digest this information.

And also you really had, I mean, it makes sense because you are this person through the lens of someone who’s not judgey.

You’re very supportive and very realistic as well.

You will be like, I know it’s not easy.

I know easier said than done.

Nevertheless, you know, this is kind of important.

So let’s dive right in.

Your book is called Green Money.

Why did you want to write this book?

Why did you think it was really important?

I come from a low-income background and got interested in the world of money when I, much like you, was very broke and trying to pay off my student loans, which here in the United States is like a full-blown crisis.

And so I was like working five different part-time jobs, hustling to pay off my debt, trying to figure out the language of money.

And as I was doing that kind of in the back of my mind, I was very aware of how my lack of money made me more sustainable in a lot of ways because, oh, I wasn’t driving as much because I was walking more, I was biking more, and that’s obviously a more sustainable choice.

I was thrifting all my clothing because I couldn’t afford new clothes, and that’s a more sustainable choice.

So the idea of this intersection of money and sustainability has been on my brain for the last decade, really.

And then I had a different publisher reach out to me.

This is actually, I haven’t shared this yet, but I had a publisher reach out to me.

Gosh, when was that?

Maybe like August 2023, and they wanted me to write a book about women and money.

I think wanting to piggyback off the coattails of Financial Feminist.

And I was like, you know what?

I don’t really want to write that book.

I would rather talk about sustainability and money because there’s so much overlap in these two areas, and it doesn’t really feel like anyone is talking about this.

And it was something that I had started talking more and more about on my social media platforms and in my newsletter and demonstrating to people like, hey, my partner and I are a one-car household in a major city.

Like, here’s how we use our bikes to get around.

Here’s how I reduce, reuse, recycle in my personal life.

And here’s how it allows me to save more and invest more.

And so after getting that offer, I was like, well, somebody wants me to write a book.

Okay, obviously, like, there is a desire for my voice.

What if I just put my voice into this topic and it ended up working out and I did get this book deal for green money so that I could write the book that I really wanted to write?

Yeah, and I think it’s a book that, yeah, I haven’t seen this type of book on shelves or it hasn’t come across my desk at all in this type of form.

And what I loved about it was it’s not a preachy book.

It’s not, you know, sometimes you talk to people in certain environmental circles and you leave and you feel terrible about yourself.

You’re like, oh my gosh, I’m the worst person in the world.

I need to recycle more.

Recycling’s not even working, you know?

So I loved that you really laid it out being like, listen, no one’s perfect, but at the end of the day, we do need to take this seriously because no one else is coming to our rescue.

Like, it’s just you and me, kid.

So we need to figure it out.

And I really loved the story that you shared in the intro.

When you were in Costa Rica, you were on this beautiful beach.

And yeah, Costa Rica is very well known for its, you know, and environmentalism, but there’s trash everywhere.

And I’ve been to places like that as well.

And, you know, I think most people would be like, what a shame, and then move on or go try to find a part of the beach that wasn’t cluttered with trash.

And you’re like, well, I guess I’m going to pick up some trash.

And then someone said, thank you so much for doing that.

And then went on their way and you’re like, you can do this too.

And I think that’s so true.

So many of us are like, oh, there’s the people out there that are doing the work, but that’s not me.

But it’s like, but if we all chipped in, if we all picked up a piece of trash, if we all did one thing, there is an impact.

But one thing you do discuss in the book is people have a hard time thinking it can have an impact.

That’s kind of the beginning of your book.

It’s like, why should I care?

Why should I change my lifestyle?

I’m comfortable what I’m doing.

So do you wanna kind of speak a little bit about that?

Why is, especially right now, so vital for us to start actually thinking about this, thinking about it seriously, and then taking action?

So the data tells us that most people in developed countries are well aware that we are in climate crisis.

It’s no longer coming, it’s happening, right?

And people are seeing that.

I think, in Canada, the wildfires that have been happening, obviously we have the same in the US, and stronger storms, hotter summers.

We’re all living through it, and so we’re all aware of it.

But at the same time, the way that most media outlets, the way that most educators talk about it, it’s either very academic, like you were saying earlier, or it’s very panic-inducing, because the problem is quite large.

And so to talk about it in a way that’s accurate, you do end up using a lot of fear-inducing language, which unfortunately has the result of paralyzing people or turning people off.

And they think, well, there’s nothing I can do, so may as well like party on sort of thing.

And so in writing the book, I really wanted the book to be an invitation into action.

I really peppered the book with stories of people who are already doing the work on small levels and on big levels.

So people who are taking action in their own communities, people who are running for office, people who are working on the federal level.

And I have a lot of resources in there for people to get involved in different groups and organizations.

But fundamentally, I wanted the book to read like a conversation that you’re having with your friend, where you’re like, you know what?

Yes, I agree.

This is a problem.

How can I get involved?

And so I really felt it was so important to speak honestly about it, to speak honestly about climate change, to speak honestly about capitalism, but at the same time, to not fear monger and to not stress people out and to not say, okay, look, so we’re all screwed and this is your fault, you know?

I didn’t want to blame anyone because we are in it together, but we don’t share the burden of the creation of this problem altogether, right?

Like a lot of this lays at the feet of corporations and we as individuals are not corporations.

And so yeah, I really wanted it to be accurate but accessible.

I wanted it to be open and honest, but I wanted people to leave feeling inspired and with actual tools in their hand.

So you mentioned corporations and that’s a big thing.

I feel like a lot of the messaging, especially like in the 90s when we did start having these conversations about environmentalism, you brought up, what was it, Captain Planet?

I’m like, oh my God, I totally used to watch Captain Planet.

But a lot of the, or there was a lot of commercials about what you can do, recycle, reuse.

I remember that was really big.

A lot of it was put on the individual.

It’s like, you should stop using plastic straws.

You’re a terrible person.

You’re like, this is not the thing.

The real evil in this world that’s killing our planet, are these really big systems, these really big corporations.

I think when you realize that, that’s also really hard as an individual to be like, so even though I’m doing my part, but they’re not doing their part, can I actually make an impact with the tools that I have, the impact, the authority, the money that I have?

Do you want to kind of speak to, even though this is true, the systems and the corporations are the biggest players in this situation, that doesn’t mean that you are powerless.

Yeah.

That’s really what the final chapter of the book is about.

It’s like, okay, look, we’ve talked through how to spend according to your values.

We’ve talked through how to invest sustainably via the stock market.

We’ve talked through all the personal stuff.

The final chapter is about big picture, high-level federal changes and people who are working on that and success stories.

Because I think it’s so important to remember, there are so many wins that we’ve already accomplished.

Yes, we still have more to do, but we’ve already done a lot.

So what I really wanted to focus on with this last chapter is, okay, look, again, the scope of the problem is large, but let’s accurately identify who’s at fault.

And we all live within these systems, right?

Like, none of us, it might be a nice fantasy, right?

People say this, like, I just want to go live in the woods.

You know, I just want to go live in the woods alone and like raise my own food and live with my friends on a commune.

And it’s like, in actuality, you’re still going to need electricity.

You’re still going to need some sort of like water system.

How are you going to clean your water?

We just live in the woods.

You can’t just drink out of a stream.

So we can’t fully opt out.

And that means, as we’re opting in, how do we make decisions both on the individual level and on the collective level that push change forward?

And that’s why I really wanted to have a lot of stories of people who are rallying their communities, people who are working on one-on-one level, people who are working on the one-on-one level, I think is a better way of saying that.

And also people who are advocating the government, people who are hosting protests, people who are working on legislation, so that we can see that top-down change.

So if you’re looking for kind of an action step, one of the things that I really like to tell people about is here in the US., we have this organization called CCL, Citizens’ Climate Lobby, and they exist in all 50 states.

So just Google Oregon CCL, California CCL.

And what CCL does is they advocate for climate-friendly legislation.

So they’re trying to get like a carbon tax put on the companies, the corporations that create the most carbon emissions.

Because it’s not about, hey, give up your car.

It’s about Exxon, which does fracking in West Texas, which is doing like deep sea oil mining in the Gulf of Mexico, and the emissions that Exxon is making.

If we could get ExxonMobil to create 40% less emissions, that would go a huge way.

That’s so much more important than you and I’s plastic straw, right?

So there are groups and people’s doing that work.

You just need to find them.

And CCL is a great jumping off point.

I guess the other thing, and there’s a whole chapter on this greenwashing.

So I feel like the idea of holding corporations more responsible, that’s definitely been more in the conversation over the past, maybe a decade or so.

But there’s also been this thing called greenwashing, which is corporations being like, no, we are, we’re playing by the rules, we’re better now.

We have this thing called, what was it that I had never heard of?

It was like clean coal.

And you’re like, how was, that was a make, you’re like, I even knew that was a bunch of crap.

You’re like, that’s not a thing.

You can’t make coal clean.

It’s a, so, you know, again, it’s, do you want to kind of speak to like, what are some identifiers?

Because again, we all want to support companies that are doing good.

It is difficult to find out which ones are actually doing good and the ones that are really good advertising that they are doing good.

Yeah.

So greenwashing, just to define this, is when companies tell you that they are making environmentally friendly decisions, but they’re not really, or they aren’t to the extent that they have led you to believe.

And so you see this a lot with packaging.

It’ll say like, made with recyclable materials, but it doesn’t tell you how much is the recyclable material.

So it could be 1 percent, and they’re not lying, right?

Like 1 percent of that was recycled, but 99 percent of it is new raw materials and thus unsustainable.

And so that’s greenwashing and it comes in many, many forms.

And a huge part of greenwashing is what you’ve been talking about, of how a lot of companies have created the narrative of individual responsibility, completely sidestepping responsibility as companies.

And they’re like, hey, if you used fewer straws, right?

Or if you recycled more or whatever it is, like we wouldn’t be in this mess.

It’s like we absolutely would still be in this mess because ExxonMobil is still fracking in West Texas.

So that’s what greenwashing is.

And it can be hard to spot.

Again, there are a lot of organizations and now increasingly apps to help you make those individual purchase decisions that are more sustainable.

So here in the United States, we have this app that’s called Too Good to Go, where restaurants can sign up for the app and they will sell at the end of the day the food that they made that day at heavily discounted prices that it wasn’t eaten during lunch, it wasn’t eaten during dinner, but they still have 50 pounds of shrimp.

And so they’ll sell it at like 50% off and you can buy it through the app and go pick up fried shrimp for dinner that night and you get to save money and they’re not throwing that food in the trash because food waste is a huge problem in the United States and also it’s very, very bad for the climate because rotting food creates more greenhouse gases, heats up the planet faster.

So things like that are available.

And then there’s also a lot of designations you can look for when it comes to the products you buy.

So things like fair trade designations are very important to look for.

Something like the Union Made is very important to look for.

So educating yourself around this and I do have some tools in the book that people can use as a jumping off point.

But again, like so many people are rallying around this and every day, I feel like there’s another organization, there’s another app, there’s another informational blog post.

So there’s a lot of resources out there now.

Oh, absolutely.

And just pivoting a little bit to, we know as individuals, we need to do something, we need to hold these corporations more responsible.

But as the consumer, we have the biggest impact when we join up together, when we’re in groups, when we’re in communities.

And I really felt when I was reading your book, you talked about how we’ve really moved away from this idea of a community.

We still use some of the language like, oh, you know, it takes a village to raise a child.

I’m like, where is this village?

Doesn’t exist.

You know, everything is on us.

And there’s so much stuff that you showed that loneliness is a huge problem in our world that I don’t think it probably existed as such a hundred years ago.

And we need to get together again.

And it is kind of wild how separate we all are.

We used to live in the same home as our families for a lot longer.

We used to rely on our neighbors and share things.

And that’s how, you know, we had a lot more or less waste because we shared food, we shared, you know, things that we didn’t need.

And even though there are mechanisms nowadays where you can share, there’s the whole secondary economy with things like Facebook marketplace and things like that.

It’s not the same.

It’s still a transaction.

You’re still making money.

And you had so many great examples of how community not only feels fricking amazing, you make friends, you feel like you’re part of something, you’re not alone.

It can also help your budget.

It can also help others in need without this feeling of shame or anything like that.

Do you want to kind of talk a little bit about why we need to get back to this idea that was around for thousands of years of the community?

And that is really how we’re going to start making real change.

Yes.

And so this is my favorite part of the book to write, because I do feel so strongly that when we’re in community together, real community together, we have open channels of communication, we have people that we can depend on.

It’s not a question of will they show up?

It’s a question of when are they getting here?

I love talking about that, because that does help our financial lives, it also helps our mental health, and it is the way that humans lived before the implementation of capitalism.

And the second chapter of the book is all about the history of capitalism, which is the current economic system that most of the world lives under.

And people think because it’s been around for their entire lives, that’s the way it has been for all of human history.

And actually, capitalism is a very new, it’s only about 500 years old, with its roots in feudal England, really.

And what happened under capitalism is we started saying in the 1400s, hey, guess what?

This is my land, and I don’t want to share the bounty of it with you, unless you pay me for that access.

You can pay me to rent this land, or you can work the land and then pay me in what you grow.

And we did not do that for most of human history.

So it is the economic system that now separates us, and we see that in our day-to-day lives, right, of, oh, I need help.

I’ll pay someone to help me.

I will hire someone to help me.

And if I can’t hire someone to help me, I don’t have access to help.

That’s largely how our world now operates.

And obviously, that divides us.

And that means that some people can get help and some people can’t.

And it also makes the focal point of our lives money and earning money specifically, so that we can then turn it into community.

So what I like to encourage people to do is to look around their lives and identify ways that they could use more community.

Do you just need more people to hang out with?

Are you like, you know what, I’m good on money stuff, actually, but I would just love to have movie nights, right?

I would just love to see people more.

Okay, how can you do that?

Do you need to join clubs that already exist?

Do you need to start something?

Do you just need to text your buds?

Do you already have friends and you just need to reach out?

And then also thinking, hey, what’s an area of my money that could actually benefit from more community?

And that’s what I really explore in that chapter.

And I share about how my partner and I were, we set up an accidental soup swap with our neighbors and that saved us money, that saved us time because we were trading resources without the expectation of any kind of financial exchange.

But other things, I share the story of the babysitting co-op in the book and how that saves the members involved money while they get their childcare needs met.

And so I think identifying an area of your life where you want more community and an area of your money that could benefit from community is a really radical way under our current economic systems of kind of turning those systems on the head, of kind of turning those systems on their head, and saying, I, listen, I can’t change, I can’t overthrow capitalism.

And you may not even want to overthrow capitalism.

But I can take this system that is flawed and make it less flawed with other people.

No, when I was reading that section, I’m like, trying to think of the communities that I’m part of, that are free, that are not focused on having some sort of transaction.

And I’ve got a few, but yeah, the one that I go, you know, I go to a gym, it’s like a group kind of fitness class, and it’s not cheap.

And it is a really big part of my kind of community.

I see these people every day.

I really love it.

It’s really brought me a lot of joy.

But I’m like, this is also a paid thing.

If I did not pay, if I missed a payment or I can no longer afford it, I lose access to that community.

So it made me think about what can I do to either create other communities or be part of them where money isn’t a necessity.

It’s difficult though.

It’s difficult.

It can be.

I will say though, I do feel like more and more people are coming to that realization that you had of, oh my gosh, I have to pay to hang out with my friends, or I have to pay to see people.

As things get more expensive, people don’t want to pay as much anymore.

People can’t.

I do think there is a much more renewed interest even in just the past three years of things that used to be more commonplace.

Here in the States, I’m sure it’s the same in Canada.

We used to have, just one generation ago, way more, I’m going to call them cultural centers.

I don’t mean like museums, but we used to have things like the Croatian-American Society or the Elk Lodge, I think is what it’s called, just where people would get together based on a shared ancestry or a shared hobby.

They might pay into it to maintain the building or something, but you could come and go and they would host outings and stuff.

Those have really suffered.

We have lost a lot of them as the generation of people who kind of maintained them have simply passed away.

As leases on buildings have gotten more expensive, so it’s much harder to find the Italian-American society today in 2024 than it used to be in 1984.

Those used to be huge gathering places for people where you knew you had a shared interest, like we’re both Italian.

That was all that you had in common.

You got to meet people, you got to get out, you got to do things together.

And so the loss of places like that, the loss of parks, the loss of third places has really impacted how we’re able to gather outside of our homes.

And so I think that’s a big challenge.

But as we have this renewed interest, I see it a lot on TikTok of people are getting together in parks and just reading.

So they’re going to public parks, they’re just reading silently together.

And then at the end of the like 30 minutes of reading, you can chat, you can mingle, and you get to meet people.

But it has a zero dollar cost.

So there is that energy for it that I’m very excited about.

We just have to find the literal places that we can get together.

Yeah, and it is becoming more hard because it’s like, yeah, there’s lack of parks, or sometimes it’s like no big gatherings or things like that.

But like you said, if you want something like this to be part of your life and to help make change in whatever that could be, it could just be impacting other people’s lives, or like you had the example of when you moved to North Carolina and you joined that group of planting trees, which I’m like, oh my god, I love that.

That’s so much fun.

I don’t know if there’s something like that in Toronto, but you never know.

There’s things that exist out there, and if it doesn’t exist, maybe this is your opportunity to do it yourself.

What I found over my lifetime is usually when I’m waiting for something to happen or for someone to start it or to make an event, you’re going to be waiting forever.

You have to do it on your own.

Just think of the impact and the power of doing that.

That’s really cool and exciting.

You never know where it can take.

Someone had to start all those events anyway, and that person could be you.

I think it’s amazing.

But yeah, I love that whole story.

I thought that was amazing.

In North Carolina, they didn’t have trees.

I always assumed, yeah, it was lush with trees, before us pioneers came over and chopped everything down.

But no, that wasn’t the case.

It was, what was it, in the 1920s or 30s that they started planting trees?

Yeah.

Where Charlotte currently is, obviously, there are trees in North Carolina.

But where Charlotte specifically was, did not have large tree cover.

It was not like a forested area.

It was fairly open.

So people built there because they didn’t have to knock down any trees.

And then it started getting very hot and very windy.

And the buildings were suffering, the people were suffering in the 1920s.

And so then they, in the 30s, started planting these trees super aggressively.

The city was like, we need trees.

And they planted thousands of trees that now are still there in Charlotte that we are all benefiting from in Charlotte, except now they’re a hundred and they fall down easier.

Yeah.

Same as with humans, like trees get old and more fragile.

So what the group that I volunteered with did was plant more trees and pulled down older trees that were really already dying and then replaced them to keep that canopy.

And it’s just like, yeah, you know, here we are continuing the journey that was started a hundred years ago.

Like, what an incredible legacy to be a part of.

There’s another really great example you give.

I think near kind of the end of the book where there’s this woman that started this kind of sustainable farm that people could be part of.

It was kind of like community garden kind of situation, which I love community gardens.

I love that they’re becoming a lot more popular, especially in urban areas like I live because again, there’s your sense of community.

You can garden with people.

How lovely is that?

You can grow your own food or share that food if you don’t need it.

But also getting back to earth and I feel like we are so online and on our screens all the time doing things that are tangible and things like gardening are just like so, so impactful and so important.

But yeah, do you want to kind of speak about, I thought that was just like such an interesting story of this woman seeing a need and seeing people that were being impacted by like food insecurity and like, I’m going to start like a farm.

Yeah.

So what’s so cool, going back to what you were saying of, sometimes we look around and we see a need, and if you can’t find anyone else doing it, what a fantastic opportunity for you to start.

But I also want to be mindful of like, people have different levels of energy, of extrovertism.

I mean, like I certainly wouldn’t expect like a single parent of four children to be like, I’m going to start my community garden, because we all have different demands on our time.

But if you are seeing something, like in the book, this woman, this black woman was like, hey, guess what?

Like black people in New York City are being negatively impacted by the way we’ve built the city, and we have less access to fresh food.

And we have more access to packaged processed food via like tiny convenience stores, as opposed to larger grocery stores.

And she started a farm in the Bronx, the Bronx, I think, or Brooklyn.

Sometimes I get them confused because they both start with B.

They start with B.

Yeah, I got it.

So fact check me via my own book.

But and she has devoted her life to the concept of food justice, which is that everyone has access to healthy, fresh food.

And she did that because she identified the need and she had the desire and the passion for it.

But she didn’t do it alone, right?

Like, yes, she had the initiative.

She got it started.

She started pushing the ball and then other people rallied behind her and also pushed.

So sometimes too, you have to remember, you might be the person who says the first thing.

And then as soon as you say it out loud, someone’s like, I’ll help you with that.

Yeah, absolutely.

I also want that.

So you don’t have to like carry the torch alone forever, you know?

Yeah, no, exactly.

And yeah, sometimes it’s something that you start and then, yeah, people can continue it.

And if you don’t want to do it anymore, you can leave.

I think some people are afraid of starting because they feel like they have to do it forever.

No, no, you don’t.

You can start it.

It can grow into its own living organism and just live after you decide to leave and do whatever you want.

And I felt that that’s really the feeling I got after finishing your book is, it made me feel like I should really take a look at my life and see what I can do.

I think a lot of people, myself included, sometimes use the excuse that I don’t have time or extra resources.

I can’t.

And then I think about how much TV I watch or how much time I waste on social media.

And you’re like, yeah, you probably do have the time.

And every time I’ve ever donated my time or participated in something I know is going to have a good benefit to the community or the world, I always feel really good.

And then I want to do more.

It’s addicting.

So there’s always a place, a space to do good.

And I know that’s kind of the overall message of your money is, or of your book rather, is that your money is a tool.

And often I think we use money just to serve ourselves, which again, I’m always about putting your mask on yourself, like the airplane, to make sure you’re okay before helping your partner.

We want to make sure that you’re not suffering.

But once you’re good, once you’ve got that foundation and you’re good, we need to look outside of ourselves, because often we are just too focused on us.

And then you can get very easily wrapped up in, oh, maybe I do need a better card, a bigger house, a better purse, better wardrobe, whatever the case.

And you’re like, well, why?

I know there’s an example of someone that you shared.

You know, she worked for a full year, stayed at her parents for basically no expenses, and had nothing to show for it after a year.

And I think a lot of us have probably had an experience like that.

Definitely the last year when I worked as an employee for a job I didn’t quite like, I blew all my money.

Like I really didn’t save as much as I should have because I don’t know, I got just caught up in things and caught up in my feelings, emotional spending and all that kind of stuff.

And when I use money as a tool to help myself and others, that’s what makes me feel really good.

I generally don’t feel good after the fact, after I do a big shopping spree, get all my stuff and then I’m like, you know, the feeling goes away for a minute and then it comes back.

And then I feel like I have to spend more.

So, you know, let’s talk a little bit about how we can use money more intentionally and then how we can also do that, you know, in a sustainable way.

Like you make it very clear in your book, you’re not judging anyone for spending money how they want to spend it.

However, we do need to be, I think, a little bit more intentional because often we are spending without thinking.

Yeah, and I think that really is the crux of the issue.

When we talk about like overspending, emotional spending, impulse spending, we’re spending without thinking.

And part of that is on purpose.

Companies really don’t want you to think too much about how much money you’re spending because then you’ll probably spend less.

So we live in this world where it’s just a constant barrage of ads, right?

Like think about how many ads you see in a day.

Like if you spend an hour on TikTok, you easily saw 60 ads because like every third video, there’s an ad, right?

Or if you’re on Instagram Stories, there’s an ad in between stories.

There’s a sponsored post, listening to the radio, driving by billboards.

Like there’s ads everywhere, trying to separate you from your money.

And they do a good job.

They do a good job.

Oh, you should smell this way.

You should look this way.

Look at this new toy.

Look at this food delivery, etc.

Our idea with spending is often to make our lives easier and to make ourselves happy.

But what I invite people to do is an exercise that so many of us, as money nerds, have completed, is to sit down and look over your spending in the last month and highlight areas that you don’t even remember doing that spending, like you see, you know, Target, and you’re like, why did I even go to Target on the 14th?

Like, I don’t even remember why I was there.

And or spending that you feel bad about, that you feel ashamed or you feel guilty or whatever it is, and then try and do less of that.

Because that, because those are the openings to start using money as a tool.

Like if you feel bad every time you shop on Amazon, because you know Amazon is like a garbage company, and you know you spend a little too much on there, add up how much money you spent on Amazon, 200 bucks last month, let’s say, and say, okay, I’m going to try and reclaim that money.

I’m going to delete my credit card information off of Amazon.

So if I try and come on here and spend money, I’m going to have to go get my credit card.

And that’s going to remind me that I don’t really want to do this, right?

And then having that number of $200 in your mind, you know, where else could I put that $200?

Could I put it towards a savings account, towards, you know, I want to go to Tahiti on vacation, I want to save for a down payment, I want to make a debt payment, or do I want to donate that money?

Like, what else could I do with that?

So I always say budgeting is an exercise in creativity because we can at any point change how we are spending and saving and investing our money.

We can make it more sustainable, we can make it less sustainable, right?

Like, you can do anything with your money.

At any point, you have to know what your financial picture looks like before you can change that.

But I encourage people to do that exercise and then to think about where they want their money to go.

I often hear from people in my own money coaching practice, oh, I want to support local businesses.

I want to support women-owned businesses.

Okay, so that $200 that’s not going to Amazon, what local business can you spend that at?

What were you buying on Amazon?

Was it tools?

Can you find a local hardware store?

Okay, let me go spend $100 there.

I’m still getting the tools that I need, and I’m keeping the money in my local community which is values aligned.

So that’s the way to start thinking about money as a tool.

Instead of making Jeff Bezos even richer, the man has enough money.

I know, he’s an idiot.

He’s fine.

You’ve went too much.

Jeff, cut me a check.

Can I spend it at this locally owned business where I know that the woman who owns the hardware store is going to buy soccer lessons, or soccer cleats for her daughter.

So that’s going to stay in the community even more, right?

I like to think about where the dollar goes.

When I spend it on a huge corporation, it just goes to Amazon HQ, right?

When I spend it on a local business, that stays where I am and that builds my community.

And that makes me feel good.

Yeah, exactly.

It really makes me rethink where I shop for groceries.

I shop at, you know, and it’s been, it’s a thing that it’s a habit I’ve had for a few years.

I feel like I mentioned this on another episode.

I’m like, I really need to do this.

There’s a grocery store, a big box grocery store right near me that I go often to get things here and there.

But there’s also kind of a local little market, and then there’s another little local Italian market, and I’ve never been in them.

And I’ve been here in this neighborhood for a good, I think, three years now.

So sometimes it’s about looking at where are you shopping and being like, and then looking at some of those organizations being like, oh my gosh, I didn’t actually realize.

I mean, buying tomatoes at this grocery store meant that I’m also supporting X, Y, Z.

I need to change my route, my routine, because we need to get out of that system a little bit.

The last thing I kind of want to touch on, and you talk a length about this, which I think is really helpful, is the investing side.

I often hear the argument that you can’t build wealth, or can’t achieve things like financial freedom and also be sustainable.

It’s either or.

And I think often we think of the stereotypes of the hippies who have no money, and they’re living on a commune or in the desert because they’re rejecting material goods.

It’s like, yeah, that’s one way you could do it, I guess, but that you don’t have to go that far to really make sure that you are being more sustainable and your money is doing good and not just making the rich richer or these corporations able to continue to pollute our world.

So when it comes to investing specifically, and thank goodness, sustainable investing has become a lot more accessible in the past, I’d even say, five, ten years.

There’s still a lot of people thinking that you can’t get the same returns if you invest in this way.

Do you want to kind of, I mean, what is your stance on that?

I know there’s stats that debunk that, but I’d love to hear from you.

Yeah.

So, man, I always think of investing as kind of like the heart of our big picture financial systems.

I mean, I always say like, if humans disappeared off the face of the earth, the stock market would stop.

The trees would still grow, right?

Like fish would still swim in the sea, but the stock market is not naturally occurring.

It depends on us.

And so our actions dictate the stock market, but at the same time, the stock market’s been around now for about 100 years, and it has laws, it has, not every company in the world is in the stock market, so it has limitations that we have to work within.

And so that is true of sustainable investing.

There is no one perfect sustainable investment that will always earn you money and that will never ever do anything bad in the world ever.

And you have to accept that there is going to be nuance in your sustainable investments.

Otherwise you can’t do it.

So for me, I don’t invest in fossil fuels.

I don’t invest in Shell.

I don’t invest in Exxon, right, like oil, coal, gas.

Not for me, because I’m an environmentalist and that’s very important to me.

However, I do invest in technology companies that are like mining for lithium and that’s not environmentally friendly, right?

I have made the decision that these three things, oil, coal, and gas, which we have tons of data on in terms of their relationship, their causal relationship to climate change, those are the resources I will take my money out of.

Those are the resources I will not fund.

I have to make a compromise with my other investments.

That means I own a lot of tech companies.

Tech companies have been performing well.

I like to tell people, I got a 17.5 percent annual return on my investment portfolio in 2023.

17.5 percent return without fossil fuels, fantastic.

I feel great about that.

That is building me wealth, that is making me financially stable in the future when I’m 60, 70, 80, and I’m going to need that money.

I’m doing it in a way that is values aligned.

And I’m working within an overall system that is flawed.

So I can accept, hey, in order to survive under capitalism, I need to invest in the stock market.

That’s a compromise I have to make.

However, I don’t have to fund every single bad company ever.

I can opt out of these 500 companies that deal with oil, coal, and gas.

I do need to make another compromise, understanding that there’s going to be other companies that are not perfect, that I am going to invest in.

That’s okay, because it’s not on me to change the whole system with my $200 worth of investments each month.

Nor is it on anyone who’s reading my book to bring about the revolution.

That’s not what it’s about.

It’s about making better choices under the systems we live in.

Just for anyone who, I mean, I think you’re an index investor, largely are, and so am I.

The good thing is, I think a lot of people are like, oh, but index investing is about investing the entire index.

How am I going to do that?

There’s a bunch of companies that I don’t like.

There are luckily now a lot more index funds that are ESG specific.

And again, like you said, they’re not going to be perfect.

You’re going to take a look at the companies inside there.

There’s going to be ones that you don’t like.

So it’s up to you to decide and compare the different ESG index funds, which ones are the most in alignment with your values.

And yeah, you’re going to have to make a compromise.

There just doesn’t exist there.

Believe me, I’ve been looking.

There’s no fund that exists that has it done perfectly.

And I think it’s because we’re still in the early stages of this type of investing.

But just know, I mean, if you wanted to invest this way 10 years ago, it would have been actually impossible, literally impossible.

Maybe there’s one fund.

So there’s a lot more options now, but you do have to find them.

Like not all robo-advisors offer these types of portfolios.

Not all ETF providers have these kind of portfolios, so you do have to do a little research.

But I thought you did a really good job.

So I highly recommend getting Kara’s book to read even the specific part of really breaking down the different types of sustainable investing, because there’s not just one way.

There’s positive screening, negative screening.

There’s all these different strategies out there, so it’s really important to understand what’s going on.

And the fact that you don’t just have to, if you want to be a sustainable investor, that doesn’t mean you’re just investing in windmills.

Like, you can, you need to still be diversified.

Yeah, 100%.

And as the world grapples more with climate change, like honestly, just in the last five years, we have seen a huge investment into clean energy.

You can invest in windmills, you can invest in wind energy, you can invest in solar energy, right?

There is a push for nuclear energy, which is a little back and forth with some people, but there are a lot more options.

And to your point, 10 years ago, there were basically none.

And so in 10 years, there will be more, right?

The more that we push for this, the more that we ask for this, the more that we vote with our dollars, the more opportunity will come for us to be sustainable investors.

Well, before I let you go, is there anything else that we didn’t cover that you want to make sure listeners know about?

The fact is everyone can be more green with their money.

Every single person, no matter what your stance is on anything, there is something that you can do.

I guess if you want to leave listeners with something, what would be a good simple action step besides grabbing a copy of your book?

What is something that you could do today to make the world a little bit greener?

Really the easiest thing you can do with your money to make the world greener and to make your money greener is to switch banks.

Get your money out of Chase, Bank of America, Wells Fargo.

There’s Royal Bank of Canada, I think.

Yes, you do know a Canadian bank.

Take your money out of there.

I know.

It’s probably like I don’t know the stats on all the big banks in Canada in terms of who they’re supporting and whatnot, but I’m going to assume all the big banks are probably supporting companies that don’t make you feel good.

Yeah, they’re all doing really bad things.

Simply moving out of these big, huge international banks to like here in the US, we have credit unions.

Yeah, we do too.

Yeah.

Just again, making your money local via your banking system is a huge, huge, huge way that you can make your money more green.

It really only takes about 15 minutes, honestly, to just open the new account and then log into your old account and transfer the money out and close the account.

It’s not a lot of work.

You can get it done real quick.

Then all of a sudden, Chase is like, hey, wait a second.

We’re losing customers.

We’re losing customers.

It’s like, yeah, you are.

Be better.

Exactly.

I think that’s the thing.

It’s we need to start making those actions now, instead of waiting for some big world event.

We saw a lot of positive change come out of COVID because it needed to happen.

It’s unfortunate that that specific event had to occur for us to see certain change within certain sectors, such as gender, race, things like that.

We can’t wait for the next.

We don’t want to wait till the next pandemic happens.

We need to make change now.

And it starts with those little things.

If the banks notice everyone’s leaving and they’re going to all these little credit unions, then like you said in Canada, not only are there some great credit unions out there, a lot of them have an online platform.

Like you don’t have to go to the branch and work.

It’s online.

It takes you two seconds to open up online.

Very, very easy.

And they’re great.

And they usually they have less fees.

And I’ve always had a great experience with using credit unions.

They’ve always been great experiences, yeah.

But yeah, we need to be the, I know it’s a cliché, but we need to be the change that we want to see in the world.

But sometimes I think we need to be reminded of that because it’s easier to do what you’re already doing, staying the same, going down the path that you’ve always been going.

If you want to do, if you want to, yeah, feel better about yourself and your part in it, do something today.

Do one little thing.

Yes, that’s exactly it.

Do one thing.

Do one thing and then the next thing and the next thing.

Okay, before I let you go, where can people find a copy of your book?

I know I’m going to have this episode coming out near when your book is actually out, but if people want to check it out or pre-order, what’s all that good stuff?

It is available on Amazon Canada.

I know I’ve talked a little smack about Amazon, but it is available there.

Unfortunately, as authors, we know that it’s like 80 percent of the book.

It’s the biggest book retailer in the world.

It’s so much.

Yes, it really does matter.

We do have to somehow, there’s no way around it.

But I know your book is on, was it bookshop.org?

Yes, and it’s also on Indigo.

That’s our big Canadian realtor.

Yes.

My publisher was like, hey, you’re doing really well on Indigo.

Are you going to be on any?

When it’s out, I’m going to try to go to an Indigo, or even some of their some local bookstores, and hopefully I’ll find out.

Take a photo for you.

Hopefully.

I don’t know.

Yes.

Okay.

So Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Target, it’s out there.

It’s out there.

And what’s your website?

bravelygo.co.

bravelygo.co.

Easy to remember.

Yeah, it rhymes.

Make sure to follow you on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube, right?

And is it just under Bravelygo?

Yes.

We Bravelygo on TikTok and Instagram, and then just Bravelygo on YouTube.

Amazing.

Well, thanks for coming on the show again.

So proud of you and excited about your first book, hopefully first of many, fingers crossed, even though it’s like we both need a break.

I know.

Right?

Yeah.

This was a lot.

This was a lot.

We need a little break before book number two, but I’m so excited for people to get this book into their hands.

It just, honestly, it made me feel really nice.

You know, certain personal finance books make you feel not so good.

You’re like, wow, I’m doing terrible.

Thanks for telling me.

This one makes me feel good because it’s all about, you know, yeah, the power that we do wield with our money, no matter how much or little.

Yeah.

And I do.

I totally agree with what you said at the beginning of this episode.

I was more sustainable when I was earning less because I had to be.

You had to be.

Yes.

I need to get back to that.

Absolutely.

Well, thanks again for coming on the show.

Thank you for having me.

And that was my episode with Kara Perez.

Make sure to grab a copy of her book that is available now.

It’s called Green Money, How to Reduce Waste, Build Wealth and Create a Better Future for All.

And also make sure to check out her website, bravelygo.co.

You can also find links to all of her social media, her TikTok, Instagram, her YouTube channel, which she is putting out a lot more videos on.

So make sure to subscribe to that.

I will link to everything in the show notes for this episode.

So you can check that out a few different ways.

I always link to it in the description of every single episode, no matter where you’re listening or watching.

You can find that link that goes directly to my website.

But also, you can just go to jessicamoorhouse.com/podcast, or if you know the episode number, which it should be in the title, jessicamoorhouse.com/theepisodenumber.

So, and also just a reminder, if you want to listen to our first ever episode together from a few years back, that is episode 224.

So check that out.

It’s from January 2020, when the world was different.

Okay, so I did mention this at the beginning of this episode.

I’m giving away a copy of her book.

So if you go to jessicamoorhouse.com/contest, that is where you can enter to win.

I’m giving away copies of a ton of books, as I always do every single season.

So you can, you know, submit yourself to win any of them.

I don’t care.

Put your name in the ring for all of them.

It’s okay.

You will only win one, but hey, there’s more chance that you’ll actually win something if you enter to win.

So jessicamoorhouse.com/contest is where you can find that information.

And I’m sure you already know this, but I have a book as well.

It is not out yet, but it will be out December 31st, 2024.

Happy New Year.

I got a book.

So if you want to pre-order now, because there’s a ton of extras, I’m giving away to anyone who pre-orders this book.

And I’ve got links for no matter where you are in the world, the US, Canada, internationally.

I’ve got some links on where you can buy.

And all you have to do is go to jessicamoorhouse.com/book.

I will also include the link here in the description, so it’s very easy.

But it’s literally my website slash book.

You can find it.

And it’s called Everything But Money.

The hidden barriers between you and financial freedom.

Let’s make this a best seller, y’all.

Let’s put that into the universe.

Please, please, please.

So yeah, that is really it for me.

Thank you so much for listening, watching.

Again, if you don’t know, all of these episodes are video podcast episodes available to watch on my YouTube channel, which is just under my name, Jessica Moorhouse, or you can go to jessicamoorhouse.com/youtube.

But yeah, thanks so much for joining me, and I will be back next Monday with a fresh new episode of the More Money Podcast.

See you then.