[Ep. 391] Your Future Self Will Thank You: How to Retire Well with Anne Lester

Jessica 

I’m so excited to have you on the show. And you know, very excited for your book to come out your best financial life save smart now for the future that you want. Which I think is a great, great title because I feel like I talk about your your best financial life or just like you know, creating a financial life that you want over and over and over again. And you really do have a background in all of this specifically to and the retirement planning and Future Planning, which I think is so important, especially for younger people, Gen Z millennials, but you know, every age, so do you want to kind of start off by giving a little bit of your background and how you came to want to kind of put all your expertise in one book.

Anne 

Jessica, first, thanks so much for having me, because this is exactly what I want to be doing and why I wrote the book, which is really helping people, as you say, everybody, but especially people in their 20s and 30s Gen Z’s and millennials understand that being young is such a gift. And it’s a gift in a lot of ways. But it’s really a gift financially. And one of the tricks is it doesn’t feel like that when you’re in the middle of it because you feel like you’re being bombarded with ways to spend your money and you never have enough. But when you’re in your 20s and 30s, you have so much time and time is is magic, when you’re thinking about your future finances. So I wrote the book. After working for almost 30 years as an investment manager as a portfolio manager for JP Morgan. I designed and built target date funds for JP Morgan, the smart retirement funds and manage those until I retired myself about four years ago. And when I retired I what I really want to do is help people understand the consequences of decisions they don’t necessarily know they’re making.

Jessica 

Now just from looking at you, you look fairly young to be retired.

Anne 

I’m technically a boomer, I’m going to be 60 this year so…

Jessica 

But still, even the idea of retiring at 60 is I feel like most people my age think that’s just that’s not possible. That’s not going to happen.

Anne 

I’m not really retired like I left my full time I left my full-time job.

Jessica 

Financially independent, like, you don’t have to work.

Anne 

No, no, I’m a spender and not a saver and my husband and I would be able to keep body and soul together on what we’ve saved. But it is not a lifestyle to which I aspire, right. So I’m still active. I’m on several corporate boards, I earn money from that. And I hope to be, you know, out there speaking and talking about my book, and I hope that generates some revenue, too. So I’m not I’m not I’m not. I don’t I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t define myself as independently wealthy at this point, no.

Jessica 

Well, everyone has a different, you know, definition of that. But it sounds like because you’ve been in this space for so long, you definitely know how to set yourself up and to I mean, to be in a position at your age to oh, I don’t have to work that job anymore, I can do something different is, you know, again, lots of people in their 20s 30s It was like, I don’t know, if that’s ever gonna meet me. I know, a lot of people are afraid that they’re going to have to send you lots of stuff. I’m going to work until my 70s and 80s, you know, just Social Security or pensions provided by the government are not going to be what if they’re not there? Or what if they’re not gonna be enough? How can I save up and also, you know, buy a house and all these things, everything just seems so much more difficult for the younger generations. But it’s not impossible. So I want to kind of dive into, you know, what were some of the things that you really wanted to make sure that young people knew, because obviously, things are different than your generation, things are more expensive, things are a little bit difficult in lots of areas. But there’s a lot of good things that have also come out in the past 10-20 years. So I always kind of think it’s like, some things are worse, some things are better. And ultimately, it’s about kind of redefining I guess what, you know, financial independence or, or freedom means to you, and then honestly kind of throwing out the old rules and kind of making your own new ones, because some of them just don’t apply anymore.

Anne 

So I think I think you made a great point, when you said that some things are worse, and some things are better. And, and one of the things that is, I think really challenging for people who are entering the workforce now or even did 10 years ago is housing is a lot more expensive, it takes a much bigger part of your paycheck to buy the average house today. One thing that we don’t see is that the average house is a lot nicer, and a lot bigger than it was. So on the one hand, the average price is a lot higher. On the other hand, we’re getting way more for that money. Like, you know, I my parents thought they were doing really well. I grew up with two siblings. So there were five of us in a house with two bathrooms. It was maybe 16 or 1800 square feet. It was not a big house, it was not a luxurious house. It was great. And it was average, or maybe a little nicer than average, like we lived in a nice neighborhood. Not the nicest neighborhood but a good neighborhood. But it today, I wouldn’t Yeah, my kids wouldn’t want to live in that house. I mean, we’ve all gotten, you know, I want a programmable thermostat. Thank you very much. I don’t want a window air conditioning unit, like what our definition of what normal is has gotten better. That’s good. That’s economic progress. But one reason things are a little more expensive is that we’re getting nicer stuff. Now that doesn’t make it easier if you’re trying to buy a house to know that intellectually does not help. But that’s the thing. I do think that some of the things that are better now for younger generations is a they’re a heck of a lot more self aware than I was at that age for one, their podcasts like this. Yeah, people are talking about it. People have a better understanding of credit and debt, which is huge. And in America, and I think this is true in Canada as well. It’s easier to save because there’s more automated ways to save and that’s the best way to save. Right. So so there’s a lot more tools at your disposal. I will say I think some of the pessimism around retirement and government benefits. Social Security or their pensions is a little too pessimistic. I think. I personally think that sooner or later, the government in America will in fact, do something to fix Social Security. And it certainly will fix it with enough advance notice so that people in their 20s and 30s Today will be able to adjust Social Security for me is not what it was for my parents, right? They made you wait longer to get to full retirement age, they tweaked the benefit formulas, they did that when I was in my 20s or 30s I had a long time to prepare for that right so any little shifts that happen will happen with plenty of time for today’s younger workers to adjust. But even if they don’t do anything, you’re still gonna get 75 cents on the dollar of what was promised. Which is not great. Let me tell you that is not a good outcome. That is terrible outcome. But it’s not nothing.

Jessica 

Yeah, cuz I the last of the conversation. Thanks. Yeah, specifically with the the US and social securities, people think that it’s just not going to be there at all. No, I don’t. Yeah. So I think there’s gonna be hopefully something. And again, I don’t think the government would allow that, if that’s actually going to happen, they would make some changes. I know. In Canada, specifically, we just were introduced a CPP enhancement, the Canada Pension Plan Enhancement, which means obviously, if you earn above a certain amount, you’re actually going to be contributing more to the pension, a lot of people are like, Oh, taxes, I don’t want it, it’s like, you’re getting that you’re gonna get that money back. It’s for savings through the government. But a lot of people just don’t like, don’t like that, and I get it. But I think once you do retire, and you get that benefit, you’re going to be really glad that it was around. So and that’s the same thing. We get lots of, you know, people worried that it’s not going to be around. But you know, you know, a few years back, I had someone from the Investment Board, who represented, you know, the board who invest the money for the plan, they’re like, we’re gonna be around, at least for the next 80 years. And that’s what we can kind of guarantee. So that’s definitely something that I think, yeah, there’s a lot of pessimism. Maybe a little bit too much pessimism. But even with that, I think the other kind of conversation around retirement is there’s no, you know, kind of corporate pensions, there’s things that, you know, we’re around with, you know, my mom is going to get a pension, she worked for the school board, my dad got a pension, working corporate job for a number of years, I’ve never gotten a pension, we had something similar a group RRSP I think that’s very similar to 401k. But it was nothing that I’m really doing much, you know, it was very tiny. So I knew, and I knew this in my 20s, I was very, you know, started my personal finance journey in my 20s. I needed to do it on my own. And that is a scary idea, knowing that, oh, you’re just thrown into the real world. And you’re like, Oh, you need now. I mean, they used to say you need a million dollars to retire. It’s like, no, that’s not going to be enough it by the time that you retire, because a million dollars mean, where I live in Toronto, you can buy you can even buy a house for a million bucks. So it’s a scary idea. When you’re in your 20s you’re like, how much do I need? And how much I’m being paid? And how much is everything? Yeah, it’s Yeah, so with so with that, little bit more optimistic. There are a lot of great things. You mentioned that, and I think that’s one of the biggest benefits is the innovation and investment in technology, especially in FinTech. And, I mean, I used to do everything pretty much manually in my 20s. And now I automate as much as possible, everything’s digital. And it’s so much easier to say, what are some tools or resources that, you know, young people can utilize today to to ease that kind of burden, or it feels like kind of a personal word, oh, I have to do it. But if you set these things up, then it’s running in the background.

Anne 

I think there are a couple of things that are really powerful to automate. One is the act of saving. And if you work for an employer who offers a workplace savings plan, like a 401 K, great because they’re doing it for you and their matching, which is huge, because that’s free money. So you know, get the free money. Pro tip number one. If they’re not, then you need to do a little more work, you need to set up something similar for yourself. But you can talk to your bank, you can go to an online platform, a brokerage account, right, most major banks have them, all the major brokerage firms, and the investment firms all have them. And you can set up an IRA or its equivalent that will automatically take the money out of your account, the day it hits it. And to me that’s that’s the best thing you can automate. And I should also say that in addition to doing that, for retirement, one of the most important things to do for retirement is make sure you have an emergency savings fund, a rainy day fund. Yes, that rainy day fund is what’s going to allow you to, we were chatting about the weather, weather, the storms that will hit you at some point, something’s going to happen to you, whether it’s a car breaking down, or a job loss, or a health issue, or your roof, springing a leak, and you’re going to need some cash you want if you have an emergency savings fund that is liquid, and you can access instantly, you’re going to be able to protect and preserve your long term savings, and they’re going to grow even faster. So that’s another thing to me that you should be automating right, that should come right out of your paycheck. And the beauty of doing that is that you don’t get used to having the money. So it doesn’t hurt when you say Oh, I have to save that money because it’s already happened. It happens invisibly in the background.

Jessica 

Now, you mentioned earlier, one of your roles was managing target date funds. Now in in Canada a little bit different. We do have target date mutual funds, we used to have target date ETFs by a provider that unfortunately folded so that does not exist anymore, but I think they’re a really great product or some one robo advisor that does offer something similar, but I want to talk a little bit about how much easier and I think again, if you don’t remember kind of the old days it was hard to invest you had to find a broker or you had have money to invest. Now you can really get started with like $20 or $100 I do want to kind of speak to some of the changes you’ve seen, especially in your career of how much easier it actually is to invest. But then the kind of I guess the hard part is the onus does kind of get put back on the person. Now it kind of feels like we have to figure out how to do it. You mentioned 401 K’s I know, I’ve seen so many things, you know, same with it, you know, in Canada group RRSPs, or just RSPs? A lot of people put cash in there, I think it’s invested in it’s not. So what are some things to think about there? You know?

Anne 

I always say there are two mistakes you can make. Like, there’s no perfect answer to this, no matter what you do, what won’t be right. Because you don’t know how long you’re gonna live, you don’t know what the markets are going to do, right? There’s no perfection here. But there are two wrong things to do. Right? Number one wrong thing is not to save, that’s a wrong thing. Second wrong thing to do is to leave your money that you need in 30 or 40 years in cash, that’s the second wrong thing you can do. That’s about the only two bad things you can do. Maybe a little bad thing is to try to trade your account. We’ll talk about that in a bit. So. So I think that the bad old days, right of this investing, whether it was in your 401 K plan, or in your brokerage account, or your IRA was, you know, back in the 70s and 80s and early 90s, when I was getting, you know, really going in my career, which was you have to go in and make decisions. You had to decide how much stocks how much in bonds, you had to do mutual fund research, you had to pick stuff. And I’ll be honest, I think in the 80s. And even in the 90s, there was a perception that it was fun. Remember, that was during a huge bull market bull market when everything was going up. And I think a lot of people didn’t realize that their cocktail party conversations and the fun they were having in the markets, you know, I was up 22% Last year, it’s like the market was up 34 He didn’t do so well. But it was invisible, because you were going up. So it felt good. It was fun. You were picking winners all the time. Right. And very few losers. There were a few couple notable ones, you know, and I think that the tech crash and the sort of.com boom and bust really woke a lot of people up, it certainly woke up the the 401k industry to realize that asking people to make active decisions about the single most important financial asset in their lives, aside from their home, was nuts. And that’s because we were learning a lot more about behavioral economics, and what what impulses govern our decision making when it comes to risk and return. fear and greed. And we like to buy risky things when it all seems happy and fun. And we want to run screaming, when it feels scary, okay, you make money by buying low and selling high. And when things are low is generally when it’s scary. Which is when you buy in when things are going really great. That’s when they’re high. And that’s when you need to sell except that’s when you want to buy more because oh my god, it’s going to the moon. So, so combating that is like the role of a professional investor, right, I used to be a professional money manager. And we had models and processes and algorithms and all kinds of stuff, risk management committees, right? That would help us as professionals not get sucked into that cycle. But when we watch how individuals manage their money when they’re trying to do this picking for themselves, a lot of them run into a lot of trouble, because it’s incredibly difficult not to fall into those traps. So another innovation has been what I used to do the target date fund, or the robo advisor. There’s a really old fashioned thing that works pretty well called a Balanced Fund, right? 6040 7030, stocks, bonds, right? You want to make sure it’s diversified that you have different kinds of stocks, large cap small caps, domestic International, but they’ll do the rebalancing for you. I think one of the most dangerous things that can happen is you get addicted to checking how your accounts are doing all the time. And is it up? Is it down and then you start spending a lot of mental energy on I don’t know if I should buy or sell and then move down you go. So yeah, great advance that that to me is is hugely important to long term success, just like let it go leave it alone. Yeah, is this automatic rebalancing. Well, you need to make sure you’re rebalancing.

Jessica 

Well, I guess like you said, it depends on the type of investment right and so you mentioned balanced funds in Canada, we’ve got our balanced mutual fund, not to be confused. There’s the terminologies is what Trump’s people right. But it’s like there’s a Balanced Fund, which could mean it’s a fund that has all the things that you want in it, your international, your Canadian, all that kind of stuff, your equities or bonds, and it rebalances itself. There’s also a Balanced fund in which it’s balanced 50% equities, 50% fixed income, sometimes those can be different. So it’s always important to you know, find out what’s Under the hood was going on you. Right? It’s the terms, it’s it really trips people up. And then we also have what’s called asset allocation ETFs over here. So it’s basically the same thing, but just an ETF form. And that rebounds, it’s for you. But like you said, if you’re doing it on your own, or you know, then you have to rebalance. But same, same that you mentioned, robo advisors, they also take care of that with you, which is good. But yeah, it’s having those structures in place where you don’t have to make as many decisions can be good. And then you don’t have to check as much. I mean, that’s been the biggest success I’ve found in investing is having a plan sticking to it. Not checking, I check it once a month. And that’s it. That’s it.

Anne 

I say, honestly, maybe you need to look at your what I call your cash flow your budget a little more often, but your actual investments, if you’re not going to need them for 20 or 30 years, you shouldn’t be looking at them more than once a year or so honest. It’s not

Jessica 

I mainly do it. Yeah, I mainly do it just to see, do I need a reboot? You know, did I get some dividends paid out and reinvest those. So you can automate that as well. There’s lots of tools there, too.

Anne 

But I like that If you enjoy doing it, you’ve got a process. Yeah. Then that’s like, yeah, yeah. I think many people are intimidated by it and don’t have a process. And you put those two things together, and you’re asking for trouble of which is those are the people that that would benefit from automation?

Jessica 

Yeah. And they’re always looking at some outside source to be like, are they doing something better? Should I change everything I’m doing and then you know, that’s a good idea.

Anne 

You just you just get it you drive looking in the rearview mirror, which is we know is a really bad way to get somewhere, right? Like you cannot drive looking in the rearview mirror that is asking for a lot of trouble. So I think those are, those are fantastic ways to, to make sure that you’re using time effectively. Because the other thing I think, and I would say this to people in their 20s and 30s, that is one of the hugest benefits that they have. And it’s a benefit that we all had in our 20s and 30s. I do not have it anymore. Is is time because time is your friend when you’re investing. And that gives you the luxury of saying I can just let this go. When the markets are going down, it only counts if you actually sell. Exactly.

Jessica 

And only if you look at it too much. It does hurt like there’s that visceral feeling of oh, gosh, what did I do. But, uh, speaking of time, over time, especially if you stay invested, you see these cycles, you mentioned the.com, bubble bursting, and then, of course, the 2008 crash, and now you know, the COVID their cycles. And so the more you I found now that I’m getting closer to 40, the more cycles you experienced the kind of and as you educate yourself and are more aware, it becomes less painful to be an investor.

Anne 

You have experience. And you talked earlier about having a plan to me a plan is they don’t always work out. Yeah. But having a plan lets you approach a problem with it takes some of the fear and stress and emotion out of it. And there’s a lot of brain research, which shows that when we are under high levels of stress, we literally become stupid. Yeah, we lose our ability to make rational decisions, because we’re no longer governed by the rational part of our brain. And the more stress you’re under, the less and less you can make long term decisions, right? And you’re just reacting in the moment. And that’s a terrible place to make any decision from. It’s a super terrible place to make financial decisions from so. So having a plan. Even if you need you’re going from Plan B to C to D, right? You’re like, I know what I need to do next. It’s right. That’s why they make us do fire drills. Right? It’s like I know what I need to do. I know I’m supposed to get down and crawl to the door like I know what I’m supposed to do. To me that’s it’s just as true in our personal financial lives it is as it is anywhere else.

Jessica 

And often I think people don’t think about their finances until something happens that is like you know, a market correction or crash or something something in their personal life happens and then you’re in this emotional place and that like you said is the worst place to be and mentally to make a good smart logical decision. So unless you have that plan that you can like wait, we’ve got this plan let’s go through that. I like the fire drill explanation. That’s a really great way it’s like if you have something for Yeah, the fire drills or the earthquakes in your home or what have you you should have a plan for when something happens to your finances you lose your job okay, let’s go to plan a for that or something like that. I think that’s a great idea. Absolutely.

Anne 

No, and yeah. I still think about what do I cut first like what do I know? I can just like you’re not doing that you not doing that? And how do I just jettison those things? Like, what’s my strategy for cutting my expenses and boosting my income? Right? Those are two levers you can pull, and they may not all work, you may not be able to do them all. But guess what? You just know what to start trying it gets you out of that stuck place and into productive problem solving. Yeah.

Jessica 

And it just puts you reminds you quite honestly, how resilient that you really are. Because I think often we don’t realize, especially when it comes to finance, where most people think that they’re bad with money. It’s like, no, it’s a practice, you know, you just have to create that practice. But I mean, the reason that I think when especially as interest rates went up, and my mortgage went up, instead of freaking out, though, there was a Motorola. I remembered, wait, you know, we’ve gone through ups and downs before I’ve got a budget and like you said, I’m like, how do we earn more? Where should we cut back was the plan of attack here. And then, you know, then it doesn’t really bugging you in a couple months, because you’ve got this plan and you’re activating it, but it’s it is, you know, you have to always get to a place of, okay, we need to calm down, and then we need to move forward and remind yourself that you are stronger than you think you’re smarter than you think you are. You’ve gone through hard things before. Why is this? The thing that’s gonna break you? I don’t think so.

Anne 

I agree with you. I totally agree with you.

Jessica 

Yeah, I’m curious too, especially with your wealth of knowledge and and just seeing kind of some of maybe the the mistakes that people have made over the years, that kind of repeating mistakes. And you mentioned behavioral economics. And that’s a topic I’m really fascinated by what are some behaviors, you see that people keep repeating, because they’re just not aware of them? And you mentioned kind of the probably the herd thing.

Anne 

Are behaviors that I’ve repeated over and over?

Jessica 

Because I’m fallible? Do we, we’re human.

Anne 

I talk about guardrails. For a reason. I still remember taking one of my kids to a birthday bowling party once and thinking I want these without echo poli, like, these are great, right? Keep me out of the gutter. And, and I, you know, our financial lives don’t have bumper guards in them, right? We don’t we don’t have something keeping us out of the gutter. But I do think that a big reason that people fall into trouble repeatedly is because it’s so painful. To change, just beginning number one painful to change, but also painful to stop and reflect on, on on why like, why am I doing this. And I think for a lot of us, and I put myself in this camp, right? I felt for years that I was a bad person. Because I didn’t know how to manage my monthly cash flow successfully. I didn’t my parents were children of the silent generation, right? They were born in the Great Depression. They never grew up with money. And they didn’t have credit, until they were in there. I mean, they had a mortgage. But credit cards didn’t even exist when they were until they were in their 40s and quite stable financially. And so I didn’t really learn that you have 100 every month and that 100 gets put in these jam jars. Like I just didn’t get taught that at home. And intellectually I kind of understood it. But like to me if I needed it, I would ask my parents and they’d either say yes or no. And as far as I can tell, I could tell they said yes, when they thought it was a good thing to buy. And they said no, when it was a bad thing to buy, but the conversation about we can’t or can’t afford this never, never came up. I didn’t you know, that was a lucky, lucky, lucky middle class kid that way. And I remember having this conversation with my mother a couple of years ago. And she’s like, Well, what do you mean, we didn’t teach you how to budget? And I was like, Well, you never, you never taught me how to budget like you never said, you can’t spend money you don’t have and put it on a credit card. She’s like, well, of course not. That’s just stupid. Why would we tell you that? And I’m like, well, here we are, you know, like, wow, you know? So So why do I feel bad that I’m too stupid to understand? Like, I mean, and you know, for them, it was just like, basic, you didn’t have to say anything about it. So So I felt it was too painful for me to even, like the pain, like the pain of not doing what I wanted to do was painful. The pain of not buying the cute shoes was painful. And oh, by the way, the pain of confronting the fact that I was a bad person. So for me, it was huge. When I started doing the research that led to the development of it. The target date funds I used to manage, because it was like, Oh, this is my brain. It’s not my fault. It’s my brains fault. Like this is the way I’m wired I have for some things. Nice shoes and chocolate chip. Wookies in particular, I have really poor impulse control. I have really great impulse control when it comes to managing other people’s money because it’s not mine, I have 100%, super good impulse control about going to the grocery store with a list and not buying a single thing on my grocery list that’s not on there. But you put me in a clothing store and show me something cute. And I’m like, Oh, that looks really cute. I think I’m going to try it on. And once I try it on, I’m done. So so to me, a lot of this is giving yourself permission to acknowledge, right that you’re wired a certain way. And the trick to to managing your own wiring is first to acknowledge it and to accept it and to say, that’s just as who I am, what do I do about it? Like, how do I take those steps? How do I figure out where my bumper guards need to go? So my ball doesn’t keep going in the gutter over and over again.

Jessica 

Did you ever find out why those were some of those like those temptations? Those particular ones were the things that always got you as opposed to you know, other things.

Anne 

I don’t know. It’s you know, it’s it’s we’re talking now it’s January as we’re talking. I’m doing dry January, like Yeah, yeah, I don’t need a glass of wine at dinner. That’s easy. I’ve also decided I don’t want to eat any sugar. Guess what, I am not successfully not having any sugar like, so am I addicted to sugar? I’m clearly not addicted to alcohol, right? Because I’m just like, can’t done like not having it. My husband has a glass of wine, it’s on the table and like you’re not having it no big deal. Somebody puts a plate of cookies out. I eat one. So I don’t know. But I’ve also, like, for me, it’s it’s controlling, it’s creating an environment that’s going to increase my chances of success. Right? And then it’s having a strategy. Okay, I did eat that cookie. What am I going to do next? I did buy that pair of shoes. What am I going to do next? Well, I’m not going to go into a store. I’m not going to let myself go into a store that has cute things. Without a list. For I’m not gonna let myself try something on or not.

Jessica 

I know when often we go into the mode of spending money on something and then thinking that we’re a bad person for doing that. It almost gives us permission to just keep going. We’re like, well, I broke the seal. I can’t go back now. And that’s a hard thing to also kind of come back you’re like, No, no, just because you bought one cookie doesn’t mean you need to get a bunch more or you bought a pair shoes. Now you can go the next door, you’re like, Ah, what’s the difference? And you’re like, there’s a big difference. Yeah, right.

Anne 

I know, I just ate a cookie. Well, okay, I’m gonna I’m gonna take an extra long walk. Like, yeah, like, once you know it, and you accept it and you stop labeling it as good or bad. Right? Because it just is it just is behavior. And it’s it doesn’t mean I’m a good person. It means I really like cookies. Right? Okay, yeah, fine. Let me let me make sure they’re in a cupboard and not out. Let me make sure that actually I just threw all the cookies in the house away, much to my husband’s dismay, right? Like, that’s just what you can eat them out of the house if he wants to cookie?

Jessica 

Well, I guess it’s, you know, kind of comes back to a point that we talked about, as I’ve talked to many other people on the show about this, the best place to make any financial or investing decision is getting emotion out of the way and especially getting rid of some of these narratives that we have, such as if I do this, I’m a bad person, instead of doing well, maybe that just wasn’t, you know, helping you or it wasn’t a great thing, but doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. But that’s money and those personal narratives about us are very and I think that’s a big barrier for why people don’t save earlier or don’t start investing is they have these narratives I’m too stupid. I’m you know, I can’t ask anyone This is so embarrassing. I don’t want anyone to know that I’m not on the same level, all these kinds of seeing things in your sports, like what are some ways that you can make that disconnection obviously, we talked about having a plan, but you know, what is it just like, over time, you know, and just practice and mindfulness?

Anne 

I think you said something just now mindfulness, it’s important I don’t think you can disassociate from some of those emotions. I think you have to accept them. The hardest thing about making a mistake is sitting with the fact that you made a mistake right and forgiving yourself I mean, that’s just painful and and I think a lot of us naturally because you know pain is painful. Like don’t like it it’s unpleasant. Yeah, but but then also we load a lot of stuff into it and it’s it’s again something i I’ve learned over the years and it’s easier on you the more practice makes you perfect right? So the more practice you get to dealing with painful stuff, the easier it is but I don’t know that you can successfully disassociate I think you just have to say yeah, that that was painful. And I’m still okay, like as you said earlier, like you’ve done some tough stuff already in your life. This is not going to be the thing that kills you like you are going to make it through this into clay. Yeah, you did about you. You made the best decision you could at the time, given all the circumstances you were in. What are you going to learn from that? And it’s okay if you feel kind of bad about it, like that’s okay.

Jessica 

Just I guess he’s showing ourselves more self compassion. Because we are really hard on ourselves. We are really, really hard on ourselves.

Anne 

Yeah. And what does it get you? Not much? No.

Jessica 

It really doesn’t get you far. No, it does not get you far. Well, gosh, there’s so many other things I’d like to touch. Oh, yeah, one thing actually before, because we were talking about young people and one, I’d say big shift. I know, it’s been a problem for lots of people. But talking specifically about debt and student debt. That has been a huge, you know, in the news for the past several years. And, you know, I was able, like, even for me, I’m 37. And I was able to pay my way through school, got a little student loan at my the end, just $5,000. And but I, you know, was able to live at home and work my way and pay my tuition. I just, that’s not possible. I don’t think anymore, just like how expensive I spoke to my mom works for high school. And I spoke to some of the students there in grade 10. And I was telling him like, I don’t think a lot of the things, the strategies that I used are applicable anymore, just because how expensive things are now. And student debt used to be a shameful thing. I think it’s still considered shameful. But back when I went to school, it was like, Oh, you need student loans is there’s something wrong. But now it’s just kind of the only way to pay for that education to get that career. I’m curious what in your mind, what are some things to just for students to be aware of, I mean, if you can’t avoid it, what are some things to do to make sure that you don’t take out too much, or you don’t let it ruin the next 10-15 years?

Anne 

I think I’m a huge believer in higher education, right college, and possibly grad school, what I think can and should happen, perhaps more than it is a realistic assessment of what you’re choosing to put into your education, what you’re going to personally take from your education, and what society will pay you for that education. And one of the things I think is getting a lot of attention now in the States is, you know, to your professional master’s degrees, and things like social work, which is phenomenal. And so needed. Society is not valuing that with 100,000 Plus ticket of student debt, because you’re not going to earn the income in a career there, no matter how important it is. Right. So one of the big challenges that I see is, is asking people who are in their, you know, teens and early 20s, with all of the things they’ve heard growing up about all this is only upside, right? How do you start rationalizing that. And I remember being so impressed with someone I knew this is years ago now who was weighing up coming out of an Ivy League school as an undergrad and weighing up medical school and had gotten into Harvard Medical School and was going to go to the University of Arizona in Phoenix and stay at home. And I thought, That’s an unusual choice. If you get into Harvard, don’t you go. And she said, I’m going to be a pediatrician. I don’t need to go to Harvard. And I don’t want those loans. I’m going to go in state because she was from Arizona, I’m going to live at home. And I’m going to have a very small, relatively speaking small medical debt. Yeah, that I can pay off as a pediatrician because I’m not going to go be a heart surgeon or, you know, name a high paid specialty that will help you pay off that that Ivy League medical school degree. And I just thought, wow, that was a great way of looking at it like Darren That was phenomenal.

Jessica 

Yeah.

Anne 

I think, but it’s it’s those kinds of trade offs, right are so hard to make. In general, in specifically for a 17 year old or 21 year old, that’s super hard. So we need to do a better job framing that for people.

Jessica 

Like that’s one of the things that when I was coming out of high school and and deciding where to go and what to study, it wasn’t really the message I got, which was Be careful what you decide to do, I’m just told and get a degree doesn’t really matter what it’ll be, you’ll figure it out. Because you’ll have a degree you can do whatever you want. And in some circumstances, that’s correct. For example, I’m working towards becoming a CFP. And now the rules have changed in Canada that you have to have a bachelor’s degree. Doesn’t matter that it’s in film. I have a useless film degree. But I’ve got a degree so that can you know, open that door, or if I want to do a master’s in something, you know, it’ll open that door to but yeah, it was hard finding a job after graduation and maybe wouldn’t have been different if I studied business or communications or thought more specifically about my career options, the salaries, I did not think like that. I’ll figure that out later. And it’s like, don’t figure it out now. And now it’s a lot easier to figure out those numbers right?

Anne 

My younger son majored in music. And we strongly encouraged him to minor in something like, you know, computer programming, which he did. Right. So okay, great go for the music degree. But yeah, little backup plan there. Yeah.

Jessica 

Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s definitely something that I think and even to not necessarily, you know, well along the same lines but there’s a lot more talk about you don’t necessarily need to great not not not to say that don’t go back to or not to go to school, but there’s a lot of great jobs that are more, you know, the technical jobs that I know a lot of people in my life have jobs as electricians and things like that. And they make really great money running their own businesses that was never talked about in school, it was always kind of considered something that was like, you know, last resort if you just have a high school diploma, but it’s, it’s a viable option, you can be an entrepreneur.

Anne 

I don’t understand why our society now I’m just gonna say sort of Western culture, and maybe the whole world values, intellectual jobs more than hands on jobs, right. I mean, you saw this during the pandemic with the first line, folks, right. I don’t, I don’t understand like the monetary value we assign and the social prestige value we assigned to certain jobs, whether it’s social workers or teachers, is crazy to me. And like, that’s above both of our pay grades here. But it does seem peculiar to me. And I would also say that we have done a disservice to an awful lot of people by saying that you have to get a college degree to be successful, because there’s a lot of successful people who haven’t had college degrees. And I think it’s a really lazy thing for employers, to say bachelor’s degree required, when that’s not real, not necessary for the job, or a master’s degree in XYZ, when it’s not really true. Like I just for certain things. Yes, it is. It is actually literally true that you need to, you know, to practice law, you need to have gone to law school, medical school, I really want them to go to medical school. But you know, in the UK, you can do a four year combined degree that’s undergrad and grad and you’re a medical doctor, and then you could do your residency and and like, I don’t know, maybe that at work.

Jessica 

That’s yeah, a better use of the time. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it’s just, you know, a nice reminder that kind of what we were talking about, at the beginning of this episode, that things have changed a lot, a lot of things are still the same. Like I’d say a lot of that kind of advice, you probably have about investing have that diversified portfolio that’s been around for a while, and it’s good advice. But a lot of things have changed. So it’s so important to to keep up right to enter question. I’d say that’s probably the most important thing, right?

Anne 

Yep. Absolutely. And, and you said something earlier about people feeling like they can’t save or invest successfully, because they’re too, they feel ashamed or like they’re too stupid. And one of the things I talk about in my book is, you know, investing rule number one, there are no stupid questions, if it’s your money. And if you don’t understand something, it’s not because you’re stupid. It’s because they’re doing a bad job explaining it.

Jessica 

That’s something that took me years to understand, because and when I was, especially in my 20s, it was hard asking those questions, and I did feel like an idiot. And now that I know when I know, I’m like, they were actually they didn’t know the answer. That’s why they were not making it clear. They can’t explain it, then they don’t know.

Anne 

You know, I don’t want to get into specific investments. But you know, we can talk about crypto and whether that’s a good idea or a bad idea. I have very strong views on the subject. But if you you know, one of the things I say is if you can’t explain it to your grandmother, don’t do it. Don’t buy it, stock, asset, whatever. Like if you can’t explain it, really simply why it should work, then you have no business investing in it. And if somebody can’t do that for you, you have no business investing in it.

Jessica 

Absolutely. Well, I know there’s so many great things in your book. And I’m so glad that you wrote it again. It’s nice having someone who’s really seen a lot of the ups and downs over decades in the financial industry to really kind of give you a lay of the land and give you some advice no matter what age but especially for young people wanting to get started in Mita a good place to start from so where can people grab a copy of the book and where they can find you online if you’re online? Absolutely.

Anne 

They can find me on my website at an AT and lester.com and withany. You can find me on Instagram Tik Tok linked in all kinds of places save smart W N safe smart within except that was too many letters. So it’s safe smart wn. And you can find my book. It’s going to be published on March 12th. But you can find it at any place you buy your books. So all the online retailers and your local bookstore would love you to place an order.

Jessica 

Amazing. Amazing. Well, thank you so much and for coming on the show.

Anne 

It was a pleasure.