[Ep. 385] What Your Identity Says About Your Money with Ellyce Fulmore

Jessica 

Welcome Ellyce to the more money podcast. So excited to have you on.

Ellyce 

So excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Jessica 

Yes, another fellow Canadian from Calgary. Very exciting. Yeah. So we’ve got a lot to talk about. You have a book coming out, which is really exciting. But I think how I first discovered you was probably on Instagram or Tiktok. One of those just you know, I think we just know a lot of people in common are in the same space. And do you want to kind of take us back to you know, where, where it all started? Was it just a few years ago that you kind of started kind of creating this kind of more personal finance related content? Because I feel like you used to do something different before maybe?

Ellyce 

Yes, you’re correct. Yeah, so it’s been since 2020 that I’ve been doing finance content. But I have been a content creator for a very long time. So whenever people are like, you blew up so fast, I’m like, this was like eight years working on it.

Jessica 

So what what was the kind of content that you created before going into personal finance?

Ellyce 

I’ve kind of done a bunch of different things. I used to have a thrifting YouTube channel, so I had like thrift hauls, and come through with me. And I used to also talk more about sustainability. And I had a blog and I was like, testing out all the different natural deodorants and like doing stuff like that, do any of them work because I don’t know if they are my favorite back then. was routine deodorant that was my favorite. So I haven’t tested the recent ones. And yeah, I also talked a lot about, just like more, I guess, personal development, self love type of stuff. And yeah, I was kind of going through my own personal finance journey behind the scenes. And then that’s what prompted me to kind of start talking more about it as I started to learn more myself. And then during the pandemic, I was laid off from the part time corporate job, I was working at the time, and I started posting more about money, I started posting more about career and that content really took off, because I think it was just really what people needed to hear.

Jessica 

Yeah, that moment, it was such an interesting time looking back at 2020. How? Because at the start of it, it was very unclear, like, how is this going to affect people do people want to hear about, you know, investing, or wealth creation or anything about money, when they’re struggling with money, they might be like, just please go away. I’m not in the mood. But it seems like the opposite people were craving that information. And there’s been Yeah, since 2020, especially an explosion, like I’ve never seen with a lot of content creators a lot more different voices in the space, which has been so cool. What, you know, you have a very specific kind of niche that you’ve carved out for yourself, how did you kind of like curate that. So you know, tell people a little bit about your eraser. So you know, you kind of label yourself as neurodivergent, personal finance. You’re also queer, you’re an educator, you’re a woman? How did you, you know, kind of figure out, these are the things that I really want to make sure I’m including, and this is my voice to kind of stand out, but also maybe offer a space that didn’t exist before in the personal finance space.

Ellyce 

So a lot of that had to do with my own experience going through it, because especially when I started getting into personal finance, it was largely older white men, and that was the majority. And yeah, it’s great to see so much more diversity nowadays. Like, it’s, it’s so great. I feel like there’s a voice for just almost anyone now to find someone that looks like them, and has had similar experiences them. But when I was starting out, it wasn’t like that. And so I really felt like there was a lot of information that I couldn’t relate to, and it didn’t feel like they were speaking to me, and they weren’t on my level. And they didn’t understand what I was going through as like a younger person. And so I already kind of identified that gap. And then as I started creating more finance content, and started working with clients and talking to more people, I just kept thinking, There’s got to be something that I’m missing here, like there’s more to people’s financial struggles than just the numbers, like, you can manipulate the numbers all you want, but there still seems to be something you know, there that’s missing. And I, you know, I had clients that were making a lot of money and that weren’t living in scarcity and like, had no problem covering their bills, but they’re still struggling to save money are still struggling to reach their goals. And it’s like, Okay, what else is going on here. So, that kind of prompted me to take a more identity focused approach to finance. And that’s when I started talking, you know, first of all my own experience of having ADHD and being queer and being a woman and then it’s kind of expanded into a lot more than that and my approach is really like let’s look at the person first and think about how aspects of who you are your lived experience your culture, your mental health, your family your trauma, like how have all of these things contributed to your financial behaviors and decisions and how can we use that information to then create a financial plan moving forward that’s actually going to be catered to your lifestyle because I think that’s what’s missing with a lot of the Personal Finance information.

Jessica 

Like the traditional financial planning sphere at all I will tell you that right. Having just been at an event that was like an internal thing and meeting a bunch of people like oh wow, it is a different worlds where we come from where we’re very free to say kind of anything and to create content that really is you know, personal to people. Yeah, then you kind of go into that you know, open the door go into the office and see the planner and yeah, it’s a different it’s they’re not there yet. Yeah, caught up.

Ellyce 

I know I find it so ironic that it’s personal finance, but then so often, it’s like, okay, but forget about your personal situation, just do this.

Jessica 

It’s like what lifecycle Are you in? What’s your risk tolerance? Okay, here you go. Yeah, some security so you’re like, well, we missed a few things. Yes, exactly. Oh my gosh. So I’m curious what got you interested cuz I know obviously, you’re a content creator. But you mentioned that you work with individuals helping them with their finances. What made you want to do that? I’ve done that before. I’ve hit pause on it for a little bit. It is also a very different thing to creating content. What was your experience like what did you find working with individuals that you’re like, oh, wow, this is this is some And then needs to be addressed.

Ellyce 

Yeah, I also took a pause while reading.

Jessica 

Oh, yeah, as you’re doing too much.

Ellyce 

Yeah, but I’ve been a coach basically my entire life. So I did competitive gymnastics as a kid and I started coaching gymnastics, basically what while I was still doing gymnastics, and then up until adulthood, and I actually have a background in kinesiology, that’s what my bachelor degree is in. And my major was adapted physical activity. So I was working with folks with disabilities, that was like my main focus. And so I worked a lot with different organizations did a lot of volunteering and coaching. And so I’ve done a lot of like the fitness coaching and, and movement kind of coaching in the past. And then my job that I got laid off from when the pandemic started was working in a financial aid office. And so I was doing a lot of like, I would be in a private meeting room, and I would speak with families or folks with disabilities and basically talk about their situation, what they’re going through, and then I would help them get access to different resources in the community and get access to the recreation center in different ways. So that’s always kind of been a part of who I am. And that’s something that I find very important, and that I get a lot of fulfillment from doing, I love connecting with people. And I love being able to create a safe space for people. And so it kind of was like a natural progression with the finance space. And I also, I’m not a financial advisor, and I knew that I didn’t want to provide that type of advice, because that is available. There’s great financial advisors out there that can do that. And I wanted to take the approach of more of a coach and helping you with like, your systems and your mindset. And the Yeah, the way you think about things, the approach you take, and like the general understanding and like financial literacy part, as opposed to like, here’s your retirement planning, here’s your, you know, investment portfolio and those types of things. So, yeah, it’s, I love doing it. I love connecting with people, right now, it’s hard for me to do one on one coaching, just with all of the other things going on. So I do a group program. And I love doing that as well. Because it’s amazing to see people like come together and they think that they’re the only ones struggling and then they start talking about it on the call and everyone else in the group is like me, too, I feel the exact same way. So that’s really cool to witness. And yeah, that’s a part of my career that I’m I’m really able to form those connections with people that sometimes it’s hard when you’re just creating content, you can’t connect with people in the same way.

Jessica 

It really does change how I think you create God, like that’s definitely what I found is you just have a more personal connection to the people that you’re creating. You’re not just creating content based on like SEO or something like that. It’s like you know, there’s an actual person, you’ve talked to you that you have a good sense of what they’re going through on the other end of it. So yeah, I think that’s super, super important. And then I guess now, like you mentioned, you have a book coming out keeping finance personal. How did that come about? And obviously, you know, we’ve kind of already touched on some of the topics that are going to be inside the book. But you know, what, how did you approach this book? Because again, yours probably similar to me, you’ve read a lot of personal finance books, sometimes they are honestly the same thing. Like, I think I’ve read this before, how did you want to make sure this would hit people a bit differently, that, you know, people would grab this and like, Oh, this is this is making me me think in a different way.

Ellyce 

As I mentioned earlier, I felt like there was a gap in that information. And yeah, reading all the finance books that I have read, so many of them are really the same information, but you’re just you’re reading in a different way. Because you’re it’s through the voice of the different parts of the author is, and that you know, it’s funny, like my favorite finance books are often just because I really enjoy the way that person speaks and their kind of take on things, but it is a lot of the same information. And I feel like that information is out there, people know that they can look up the steps to building wealth, but that’s not what they’re missing. There’s obviously something else that’s going on. And so I wanted to fill that gap of like understanding why you make decisions and where those decisions come from, and where your beliefs around money come from and how the way you interact with the world influences your decisions and how your identity you know, subjects you to privilege or systems of oppression and how that’s going to influence the way that you build wealth and things like that. So it was a lot of through my own journey, but then also working with clients and kind of getting, you know, hearing those types of things over and over again. And I did the trauma of money certification a little while ago that was actually after I had signed my book deal and it was already working on the book. But that like further solidified I think the concept of my book and also really opened my eyes to even more about trauma specifically and how that impacts our money. And yeah, I think it’s just something that that needs, it needs to exist and people need to start looking you know if the money things that you’ve been trying just aren’t working for you. I think you need to look at the personal aspect and understand how that connects with money and that’s what keeping finance personal is going to do.

Jessica 

Now I know I’m sure a lot of what’s in the book and in the content you create is like you kind of mentioned, based on your own personal experiences, do you want to kind of share a little bit more? You know, what were some barriers that you, you know, you kept on, you know, like, How can I not overcome this? Or why am I not progressing with my finances? When I’m doing XYZ, like all these books are saying, and how did you figure out? Oh, maybe it’s my ADHD? Maybe it’s this? Maybe it’s that? How did you How were you able on your own to figure some of these things out?

Ellyce 

Yeah, so with ADHD, specifically, I had already started my personal finance journey, I had consumed all the information I like, knew all the things to do. And I was making changes. But I still felt like there was a lot of things that I wasn’t able to change, even though I was aware of them. And I was like, trying to implement the things that people have told me to implement. And so yeah, I was like, still struggling with impulse spending a lot. I was still struggling to stick to a budget, I was like, trying all different types of budgeting templates. And like, you know, hearing people talk about how amazing they were, and then being like, I cannot stick to this for more than three days, and struggling to stay organized. And I was like, forgetting about things. And it just Yeah, so I was still struggling. And I couldn’t really figure out why. And then when I got diagnosed with ADHD, and I started to learn more about how ADHD affects people, I started to put a lot of the puzzle pieces together and understand like, oh, wow, it’s so much of it is just because my brain thinks about things differently and needs different systems and needs a different type of motivation than neurotypical people. And so making those tweaks and changing those things was when I saw the most success with my financial stability. And that kind of rings true for all the other aspects to like, even coming out as queer, I have a story in the book where I talk about how I used to very much dress and act in a way to get male attention. And that was me, like suppressing my queer identity. And not that you can look any way if you’re queer, you do not have to, you can be very hyper feminine and be queer. But for me, I, I am not hyper feminine. And I was doing that as a way to like, avoid this identity that I was like, not, you know, coming to terms with. And so I spent a lot of money on like my clothes on my makeup on my hair. And again, nothing wrong with spending money on those things. But it was something that I didn’t actually feel aligned to spend money on, it was just a way of like, avoiding who I was. And so then, when I was able to come to terms with that, that also changed my finances, my spending behaviors changed a lot when I came out and realize like, why am I doing this? Like, I actually don’t want to wear these clothes. I don’t want to, you know, do my makeup everyday. That’s not me. And so, yeah, all of those things were tied to who I was. And those are the things that have actually made the biggest difference for me.

Jessica 

I mean, that’s such an interesting way to think about it. Just like if you go through practice of looking at your spending for the past couple months, that’s a great way. And if you feel like, you know, there’s all these things you’re like, I’m not really happy with where my money’s going. I’m not happy with me. But I don’t know why I can’t find the answer. Sometimes looking at your spending will give you some, you know, a few breadcrumbs to be like, maybe it’s because yeah, you’re running away from something you’re trying to be someone who you aren’t, you’re not, you know, really following, you know, your authentic self or your personal values. And if you figure that out, then you can start figuring out, okay, who am I then? And how can I change things for the better I, I want to kind of talk a little bit more about the ADHD component, just because, you know, it is actually, you know, being talked about a lot more in the personal finance space, what were some, you know, once you were able to kind of figure out and that connection, what were some systems that you were able to create for yourself, that may not make sense for someone else. But for you, you’re like, this works for me. And the other systems that all these other books say, they never worked. This does, though.

Ellyce 

Yeah, that’s a great question. I tried to think of like, the biggest things that that don’t work for other people.

Jessica 

Or they were they were for other people. But you know, just like when you said, you know, the budget is like, I used to have IT budgets work, but they may not work for everyone, or you have to create one in a different way to work more for you. Like I have, you know, budget spreadsheets, they meet you know, some people are like, this is too complicated. For me, I’m like, fair, they may not work for everybody, whereas there was other people were like, I need something really complex and all these features and all this stuff. So it’s like you can never make everyone happy. Yeah. But you know, I know for lots of people I know, I feel like you’ve talked a lot about the importance of automating things. I think that’s good for everybody. But especially if someone you know like yourself, it’s like sometimes I feel like I just want to spend but if you have systems in place that prevent some of these kind of emotional responses, maybe you kind of you know, hit the gas or the brakes a little bit.

Ellyce 

Definitely one of them is like gamifying it basically everything and building reward systems in so I need to feel excited about whatever the system is so like If you take a budget, for example, there has to be something about it that is like, almost like a game to me. So whether there’s a prize at the end that I’m working towards, or whether it’s like, color coordinated in a certain way, that’s maybe it like, I don’t know, some sort of thing. Yeah, this Excel sheet where there’s like a little plant that grows, you know, like a thing like that. Or I’m like doing it with a friend. And it’s like a competition with someone else, or something like that there needs to be an aspect that’s like, always like a game. And whether it’s against me or just against someone else, but it has to be something like that. And reward systems are huge for me. So I love sticker charts. And I always say like, I don’t know why we stopped using sticker charts when we became adults, because they’re the best ever. So yeah, basically, if I’ll have, for example, maybe it’s something like every time I tried to give a translatable example, maybe it’s like, every time I save $10, I put a sticker on the chart. And then I have the goal of like saving, I don’t know $200, for something. And so then once I reached that $200, not only do I get to like go buy that thing, but then I’ll also have some little reward that I’ve decided ahead of time is going to be at the end, it doesn’t have to be a monetary reward, it just has to be something that feels special. So that might be I don’t know, maybe I’ll make my favorite cookies, or maybe I’ll watch. I don’t know, I’ll spend the whole Saturday afternoon watching my favorite TV show or like, or something that feels special to you, obviously can be different per person. But that’s another big thing that even the small financial steps, I need to feel some sort of reward or get some sort of dopamine from doing so the things that are second nature to a lot of neurotypical people, and that they are just like adulting responsibilities that they would just automatically go and do. I need to have some sort of extra sprinkle of flavor on there.

Jessica 

Curious what your experience has been like with investing, especially talking about like the impulse control, we see that with just people that don’t have ADHD that feel super inclined, because of the systems in place with like apps that make it really easy to trade, going in there checking too often getting notifications. So they’re thinking all the time and then maybe doing something that isn’t in their best interests for long term wealth creation. What are some things that you have done to make sure that you don’t kind of fall into some of these traps? Because I mean, it is just that is like one of the biggest issues I feel like, especially with young investors is all of these apps that are out there are making it kind of like there’s there’s no barriers, there’s no, there needs to be some gatekeeping a little bit or like something to prevent you from making a really expensive mistake, because you can press a button, and bam, your money’s gone.

Ellyce 

Yes, I am luckily not someone that get I don’t get a lot of dopamine from trading. So for me, I just don’t have notifications on. So I don’t get notifications about those things. I also just don’t check my investments very often. So I’ll have it like scheduled, you know, like once a month or something, well, I’ll go and check that otherwise, it’s just going to be automated, so I don’t have to look at it. And that same with my savings, I keep my savings very like out of sight out of mind. But I think that if you are someone that struggles with that, like Robo advising is a great option. I mean, you can Yeah, tell me your input too. But I think that if you know that about yourself like that’s another that’s where this personal aspect comes in. If you know that you are someone who is going to maybe hyper focus on trading, and be staying up all night and be like stressing about things, and then ultimately making maybe not the best decisions, then get a robo advisor and just don’t touch it.

Jessica 

Yeah, maybe trading, maybe doing self directed investing is not a good thing for you. Yeah, I give the example all the time, my husband, you know, we’ve kind of done all the different options, but you know, advisor than robo advisor than he wanted to do self directed and help them set it up. And it just made him really unhappy. He was anxious a lot and wasn’t sure if he was doing it right. All these things. So like, this is just not the path for you. Let’s go back to robo advisor because, yeah, you shouldn’t have access to this. Yeah, and that’s okay. That’s okay. Everyone’s different. You need to kind of Yeah, like you said, really figure out who you are, what, what you should do and shouldn’t do. Because we yeah, sometimes we need something in the way so we don’t accidentally just blow all our money on something.

Ellyce 

Yes, exactly. And if you do really enjoy that, I think a kind of workaround is like giving yourself a budget of like a small amount to play with and invest how you want to, but making sure that’s like a small percentage of the overall amount that you’re investing so that way if you lose all that money, it’s not going to be detrimental to your retirement.

Jessica 

I guess along the same lines to is I see a lot of this and I believe like part of your journey as you were in debt. I wasn’t sure if that was a student debt or or consumer debt but you know, credit cards, lines of credit. It’s again, so accessible these days and especially if you have some of these kinds of impulses, it’s again, very cuz you just go down that hole, you know, the rabbit hole, and then it’s hard to dig yourself out, do you want to share a little bit more about your personal debt story, and then also just some things that you’ve learned that, you know, again can help people either stay out of debt, get out of debt, not get into more debt.

Ellyce 

So I had $35,000 of debt and 20,000 of that was student loan debt. And then 15,000 was line of credit and credit card. And that 15,000 was basically entirely from impulse spending. Oh, really. So that was money that, like, I genuinely can’t tell you the majority of what that money went towards, like, it was like me just blacking out and shopping and looking at my credit card statement and be like, I don’t remember this. I know that a chunk of it was spent on traveling. And that was also impulsive, because I would basically book a trip on a whim and be like, I’m gonna go somewhere in two weeks. So let’s book it now. And so I would, you know, pay more because I’m looking at last minute and then I’m like, scrambling to find places and I don’t really have the money to do it, and that I’m using my credit card on the trip and things like that. So yeah, that being diagnosed with ADHD helped a lot in understanding my impulsiveness for me, was largely linked to being either well usually under stimulated, so basically, like bored, right. And it gave me dopamine, it was also like a coping mechanism. Because I felt so out of control with my finances, and honestly out of control and a lot of areas of my life that felt like an area of control, because I was the one making the purchase, even though it was very out of control.

Jessica 

You know, it’s so funny that you mentioned that I feel like it’s just on Instagram recently. And I don’t know if these ever go on your feed, but I see a lot of them. And I’m like, I don’t know why people are showing this to me, but this really isn’t for me, but it’s like these young people being like, Oh, I’m not happy. And then they just book a trip to Paris and you’re like, um, don’t don’t do that. Don’t do that. But it’s funny when you’re just saying that story. That’s literally a very similar story to when he talked to Gabe Dunn recently, and they went to Paris on a whim. Like and Paulson. Yeah, didn’t have a place to stay or anything like that. Like, okay, yeah, that could be dangerous.

Ellyce 

Yeah, yeah. And in the moment, it feels like, I’m taking the reins, and I’m making this decision, and you’re not thinking of the future repercussions. And obviously, looking back on it, you’re like, wow, I was really not in control of that. I was like, impulsive and not paying attention to what I was doing. But yeah, it’s interesting. When you’re when you’re in it, it’s feels a lot different.

Jessica 

I’m curious, just with ADHD, do you? Do you have more of a focus on the present instead of the future? Is that one of the issues that you see? Or maybe this isn’t an ADHD thing at all? But I’m curious, it seems like with the impulse, especially is it more like your present focus instead of future focused.

Ellyce 

So there’s different types of ADHD and I am the combined type. So that means that I experienced both inattentiveness, which is kind of like the daydreamer, but then also the kind of hyperactivity, impulsivity, so for me, personally, I feel like I’m either in the moment and very impulsive. And like, I will not think about the future repercussions at all. Or I’m like daydreaming about very far in the future. But then I can’t connect, how it will do that, how to do it. How do I get from my present to my future? So it’s like either really far in the future, or very current. I know, a lot of other folks with ADHD struggle with any sort of future planning. So in that, like experiment they did with the marshmallows, yeah, with children. Most people with ADHD would choose the one marshmallow in front of them and not wait to get the second marshmallow. And that’s, that’s pretty common, but it obviously manifests a little different for everyone. So yeah, that was a thing for me. It was like, I’m going to enjoy myself in the moment. Or it’s like, I know, down the road, that I want to have a comfortable retirement and I want to be debt free. But like, that seems like so far away, and so impossible right now that I’m just not going to think about it.

Jessica 

That’s the problem with I think most people is having a hard time picturing the future because especially if you’re like when you’re in 20s, you just feel like you have so much runway you have so many years. And then I mean, I’m 37 I’m like oh my gosh, this time just goes by so quickly. It’s like what are some some ways in your mind, especially for young people, because you know, especially personal finance is all about like long term is always think about do what you can as soon as you can, you’ll be better off for it. Easier said than done. What are some mechanisms that you’ve been able to, you know, included some of your content or help your clients with, or even in your own life to not just have this this like thinking about today, but thinking about tomorrow, especially when it’s decades because even for me I’m like, I cannot imagine being 65 but then I’m doing the math like that’s actually not that far like it is but it’s not, you know?

Ellyce 

Yes. So my biggest tip is to break the goal down into like the smallest possible pieces. So if you have a goal of buying a home in like five or 10 years and you you know, kind of figure out how much money you need for a downpayment and how much closing costs, whatever you’re saving up, and then you divide that amount by like five years and And then you have your yearly amount, and then you divide that by like 12 months. So you have your monthly amount. And so basically you’re focusing on the immediate gratification kind of goals, select the thing that’s right in front of you. So with a lot of my clients with ADHD, we will map out the long term goal together, but then really all they’re focusing on is like the six months to maybe one year goals. But we’ve, we know that it’s going to set them up to get that long term goal. But it’s no longer don’t think about paying off $20,000 of debt, think about paying off $500 of debt, and like, and that was where the reward systems come in to like, give yourself a reward on every single little tiny milestone, even if it feels silly when you’re doing it, that’s going to help you build the momentum to keep going and like feel like you’re actually achieving the goal. And if you celebrate those little milestones, as if they were the $20,000 debt payoff, like that makes you feel more excited and more positive. Whereas if you’re just kind of treating it like, oh, I only paid off $500. Now I have $19,500 more to pay off, then like that sucks, that does not feel good. And so that’s going to be a lot harder to stick to in the long term.

Jessica 

Yeah, no, yeah, that’s I mean, such great advices. Because yeah, when you think about any kind of big or even just like I need a million or $2 million, with inflation for retirement, and you know, by 65 assists sounds impossible, or even buying a house that sounds impossible, because houses are ridiculous. But if you break things down, it becomes a little bit more possible, though. I don’t know what some of the things. That’s crazy right now, I don’t know what to say about that one.

Ellyce 

Yeah. But then the goal can become instead of the goal being buying a home, the goal is saving, what $4,000 This year, yeah. And then even if your goal shifts and changes, you still have $4,000 that you saved, which then maybe can be for a different goal. Maybe you decide you don’t want to buy a home, but you’re going to buy an RV and and drive around the US then you know, then you can put that money towards the RV or something like that. So at least you’re still working towards something. And if that goal ends up not being something that works out, you’re still making those little steps towards.

Jessica 

Yeah, I feel like that’s a really hard thing. And personal finance, especially because I feel like it’s really based on these really structured rules. And we don’t talk enough about adaptation and added to, you know, adapting to change. And so I talked to so many people with like, they’ve reached their emergency fund goal, and then they actually have to use their emergency fund, and they don’t feel comfortable doing it, because they’re like, oh, I don’t want to ruin it. That’s not the whole, the whole point was to use it into a debt. You know, this is why we have that or, yeah, like you, you lose your job. And then you try to you know, you need to figure out something else. But it’s hard to not be like I’m a failure. Oh my gosh, like, this wasn’t the plan. You know, it’s hard to change course what you know, I don’t know. I mean, you’ve been able to adapt quite well over the past couple years. But you know, how have you been able to manage change? Because I feel like that is the hardest thing that people deal with is struggling with having a plan change and not knowing if am I doing this, right? Because we’re all trying to figure out if this is the right path? Yes.

Ellyce 

Well, I think first off, nobody knows what they’re doing. So I know people say that all the time. But like, quite honestly, nobody knows what they’re doing. And even people like me and you in the finance space. Like we make financial mistakes, like Yeah, it happens all the time. So I think it’s easy from the outside to be like everyone else knows what they’re doing.

Jessica 

They’re just making it look like they know what they’re doing. Yeah.

Ellyce 

Yeah. So I will say my emergency fund, definitely, that protected me I had an emergency fund when I was laid off and the pandemic and that was like a big thing that I talked about with my content. I was like, if I didn’t have this, I don’t know what I would have done. And I was still very stressed and very scared when that happened. But I didn’t have to worry about money. And I think that provides so much mental space to think about other things. I like to call my emergency fund my safety fund. And I found like, for me personally, changing the language on that has been helpful. I know other people call it solution fund or like, you can name it something funny if you are more clever than I am. I’m not good at the money names. But those types of things like reframing how you think about it is like it’s not just for emergencies is just like a safety net. So like that money is there to catch me when I fall. And this would be an instance like getting laid off. You know, making a financial mistake like that money is there to to be that safety net. I also think going back to what we said earlier, like talking about it with people and like having someone in your life that you can actually open up to about your financial struggles is so so important because it’s so easy to feel isolated and to feel like you’re the only one and that you know you’re the problem and you just have to figure it out when in reality like there are so many larger societal systems at play that I think are more to blame for a lot of people’s individual financial situation then the individual themselves. And like we can talk about the cost of living, we can talk about inflation, we can talk about, you know, all of those things like those have a bigger impact than you. overspending? Yeah, a couple months in a row.

Jessica 

It’s like, it’s not the latte anymore. So something else that’s making, you know, rent increase by 50%, and stuff like that. Oh, my gosh, yeah, it’s, it’s yeah, I’m curious, too, because you are a younger person. I don’t know your age. But you’re, you’re definitely younger than me. How are younger people? Like, what is the vibe out there? I’m curious. Because I, you know, I grew up as a millennial, when millennials were like, Young. Now I’m older. And we, you know, completely like, Oh, we’ve got a tough man, I look at what’s going on for young people. Like, that’s tough, man. Like, that’s so much tougher. I feel like personally tougher than what I went through. And that makes me sad. What how are, you know, younger people, especially in their 20s, or just finishing universities? You know, coping really? Yeah, I have a question.

Ellyce 

Sorry. I’m kind of in the middle. Because I’m, yeah, I’m 28. About I turned 29 soon. And so I was like, already graduated. You know, before the pandemic, and I know that, you know, people that were in school or just graduating like that, I can’t imagine how that experience must be. And like, I, I don’t know what that feels like. I also kind of I escaped the 2008 financial crisis, like I was too young. So I kind of like, right in the middle of two huge traumatic events. That didn’t necessarily affect me coming out of school, but affected me in other ways. But yeah, you know, to be honest, I don’t know if I know exactly all of the repercussions that are like currently happening. I think that’s an interesting thing that’s going on right now is like, I’m still trying to gather that information of like, how is this affecting?

Jessica 

Yeah, everyone, we probably won’t know for like, another 510 years, just the millennials after the 2008 crash, it wasn’t clear how things were gonna go into, like five or 10 years later, but yeah, we’re just even for you like, what are your thoughts on just like, yeah, like, I mean, I’ve never experienced a cost of living crisis like this. I’ve never experienced, you know, inflation, interest rates, housing prices were crazy back when I was 25. And now they’re ridic. Like, they’re ridiculous. Now, like, we, you know, how does that? I mean, for me, I’m just like, it seems like how can people not be just like, absorbed with hopelessness with what’s going on? And how do you kind of get out of that mindset? How do you how do you motivate yourself? And things feel like they’re just falling apart? Yeah.

Ellyce 

Okay. So I feel a couple of things. I feel like First off, we can learn a lot from past traumatic events. And I actually, I have a chapter of this on the book, in my book, talking about, I talked about 911, the 2008 financial crisis, and the pandemic, as it was up until that moment, which was, like 2022. And so I talked about what we can learn from these events, and also how they affect different generations, and how different generations like learn different things from them. And so I think that’s one thing on the tangible side, that we can implement right away, like, there are some things that we know, like, emergency funds are very helpful. Having a diversified investment portfolio is good having a will and like knowing, you know, what, if something were to happen, what’s going to happen with your financial assets, like having those systems in place, and just in general, the need for financial literacy, I think has increased a lot like the understanding of like, the decisions that you make now, how they’re gonna affect you later. And I think that young people have less trying to think of what the word is, they have less space to make mistakes. And they don’t really have that the same 20s of like, figuring it out and driving things. It’s kind of like they’re almost being forced to grow up a little faster.

Jessica 

And skip the like, I’m in my 20s I’m having to mess around figure like, that was the advice. Well, not my parents didn’t, but like the overall like, kind of message when I was in my 20s. Like, oh, don’t worry about your 20s you can figure it out in your 30s. And for me, I’m like, type A and like, well, that’s not for me, I’m gonna like just go hard into like reading personal finance books and learn about budgeting in my 20s. But that was the advice. And I’m like, gosh, I’m glad he didn’t take that advice. Because then, I mean, you hit 30. And then you’re like, shoot, now I have to start from scratch. But yeah, I think that’s really accurate, that younger people have to kind of grow up a bit quicker, just because things are just a little bit harder. And not to even mention that the fact that they have to kind of figure out how to take care of themselves. And then also there’s their their parents that are getting older and retired. And can they afford retirement because again, things have changed. It’s not like they, you know, maybe they were going to graduate or retire with debt and all this kind of stuff. It’s just yeah, it’s just a lot. Yeah.

Ellyce 

In terms of like the mindset I would say that really getting clear and defining what success means to you and what wealth means to you is so important because a lot of us just follow the recipe of our parents and we we, you know, for people that It did see their parents become successful and, you know, have a job that supported their family and that maybe had a home and are going to be able to retire. They see that and they say, Okay, if I just do what my parents did, then I’ll have a good life too. But the same thing doesn’t work anymore. And it’s also a lot of it is impossible anymore. Like, you know, pension plans are not what they used to be.

Jessica 

And it’s like, not really feasible to be, you know, live on a single income, like, my mom didn’t work for a number of years. And like that is not like most people need to work, because we need both incomes to pay for all the things you know, things have changed.

Ellyce 

Yeah, so if you were to like ignore what your parents told you to do, or your caregivers told you to do or like, ignore the kind of like American dream. And think about realistically where life is right now, where your finances and career right now? What would your version of success look like? And what would be possible for you. And I think like redefining that can actually be encouraging and like helpful, because then you realize, like, oh, I don’t need to just achieve these things that I’m told I need to achieve, I can do this other route and still be very happy and very fulfilled, and still be comfortable. And it’s my own version of comfortable and my own version of like, what is enough for me. And I think that can be helpful in hard times. They’re still hard, they’re always gonna be hard.

Jessica 

It’s gonna be hard. Like, it’s never I don’t know, if it was actually ever easy. Maybe there’s a few years here and there in history. But I mean, going back to the what you were saying about the identity, that’s, it makes a lot of sense. It’s like we we, I think a lot lost ourselves in trying to follow this path that someone else set, but we’ve never really had any say in is this even the path that I want. So I My advice to someone who’s well into their 30s is figure that out sooner rather than later. Because not that it’s ever too late to change. And like go back to school or really switched things up. But it’s easier to change when you’re younger. Yeah, there’s a lot less on the line.

Ellyce 

Yes, there’s a great book I read a couple years ago, and I I read it probably like five years ago. So I’m not sure how it would be now. But it’s called The Defining Decade.

Jessica 

Oh my god, that’s so funny. I love that book I read that I loved when I was maybe 31 or something. And so I like finished my divining I’m like, but I’m like, Oh, this is encouraging. I think I did a lot of good things. Yeah, a great book.

Ellyce 

I feel like it that was a really big mindset shift for me, because I was kind of in that, like, YOLO 20s phase. And then yeah, that book is basically what you were just talking about is addressing how if you set yourself up in your 20s, you’ll set yourself up for life, like it’ll have such a huge impact. So I would recommend that first exploration.

Jessica 

I feel like there’s so much pressure to explore all aspects or aspects of yourself in your 20s. And then you have to stick with whoever you set up for yourself at 30. Like 30 is like you’re defined, and then you have to stay that person is like, No, you can cheat, you can continue to change. Like my husband is going back to school for something and you know, so it’s like, it’s it’s never too late. But I again, that’s not the message we usually get, we usually say do everything when you’re young. And then when you’re old. You just got to you know not it’s like, no, you can literally do whatever you want, actually, yeah.

Ellyce 

That’s such a great point. I feel like that. That even goes back to like the pattern of success, or the line of success is like in your 20s or figuring out exploring doing what you want. And then it’s like career job. And family house dog Baba. Yeah, can’t do anything fun until you retire, you

Jessica 

have to stop worrying, like, that’s no fun. Yeah.

Ellyce 

And that like really ties into the like, Oh, you want to travel, you want to do all these things, and you’re past your 20s when now you have to wait till retirement like yeah.

Jessica 

And you’re like, my knees are not going to be what they are, you know, or like, my knees are bad now, like, I’m not going to be backpacking at 65. You know?

Ellyce 

Yeah, yeah, I will. I will also say I also recommend die with zero, the book was really helpful for that aspect. Because the author Bill Perkins talks about how your money should be spent, like a bell curve. And so you’re spending your money all throughout your life, and you basically die with zero, like, basically, hardly any money is the goal, whereas most people will die with like, we’ll still have money left. And that doesn’t really, it doesn’t enhance your life. And then usually, if they pass it on to their children, their children are already financially stable at that point, because they’re a lot older. Yeah. And so it doesn’t help them a lot, either. So yeah, I think like finding ways to enjoy your life throughout your life. And maybe that means like, you know, some people are doing those, like mini retirements, like every three years, they do a little, you know, take a month off or take some time off, or whether it’s just like saving up money for trips throughout the years and putting a little bit less towards retirement, still still prioritizing that but also prioritizing actually living and enjoying your life.

Jessica 

Yeah, yeah. No, I think there’s a lot of stats out there too, that that show the amount of money that people leave when they die, and it’s just like how, you know, we’re so paranoid of not having enough and I don’t actually think that is like the truth of it. Most people end up like if they are proactive. Saving, they have an up, it’s usually people that maybe didn’t start saving soon enough that, you know, end up with kind of a shortfall. Anyways, I know we could probably talk for a long time, but I’ll just have to have you back on the show at some point in the future. But I’m so excited that you have your book coming out keeping finance personal. What’s the subtitle of the book again?

Ellyce 

It’s ditch the shoulds and the shame and rewrite your money story.

Jessica 

Oh, I love that. I think that’s so like the Money Story component, I think is such an important element. I love that. Well, I’m so excited for you to have your book come out. I think it’s a really important book. I’m so excited for people to read it. Where can people find more information about you? Your website? You media? I feel like it was something that you have a podcast where can people find you?

Ellyce 

I’m a bad, not bad. But I’m not the best social media person and that I have different names on every platform. Not the recommended thing. But on Instagram, it’s a lease stop for more. And then on tick tock. It’s queered queered.co, I believe.

Jessica 

I’ll link to everything in the show notes. But just so people listening, they can like, look you up right now. Yeah,

Ellyce 

And queer to post my, the name of my financial literacy company. And right now, my podcast is on hiatus. But it will be hopefully coming back at the end of this month. Yeah.

Jessica 

So by the time this airs, it will be live. But in what’s it called? Yes.

Ellyce 

It’s called dopamine dollars. And that is a new title. So I’ve really renamed the podcast and it’s going to have Yeah, a little bit more of an ADHD focus for the podcast.

Jessica 

Yeah, that I don’t think that exists. So that’s great. Yeah.

Ellyce 

And then lastly, my if you’re interested in pre ordering the book, you can go to queered wcco.com/book. And that’ll have all this different sites you can buy it from or if you want to just go directly you can go to Amazon, Barnes and Nobles books million bookshop, all of the main kinds of outlets..