[Ep. 384] Charting Your Financial Freedom Journey with Jamila Souffrant

Jessica 

Jamila, back to the more money Podcast. I’m so excited to have you on especially now that you have a book coming out.

Jamila 

Yes, thank you so much for having me back on Jessica.

Jessica 

Happy to because yeah, last time you were on the show it was sometime in 2021. I think we were still probably in the thick of COVID weird times. And you were able to I mean, I guess during that time, you were probably putting the wheels in motion of getting this book deal or this book happening. And now we’re you know, set. So you have your book come out, which is so so exciting. Was this something that I mean, I know the answer to this probably but was it something that was always kind of in your purview? You were always looking to like, yeah, one day want to have a book?

Jamila 

Yeah, you know, and it’s funny because when I first started joining to launch, there would be little opportunities that would come up regarding books, like publishers would reach out some but a lot of times in the beginning, it was mostly like we have an idea. Do you want to be the author? No, I don’t want to do it like that. Or there was one I remember a person that reached out and said, we’re looking to do a financial independence retire early book. We just need like an author. And I was just like, Yeah, but it’s not like my book. It’s like what they want and it will be directed by that. And so I always knew, and especially when I think back and I talked to my mom, she was just like she always thought I’d be a writer, because I love to write and I used to get little literary awards throughout my school or for my teachers. And I did love to write a lot when I was younger. Of course you know as you get older in life happens you don’t do as much of those things. But it doesn’t surprise me. Because as I started to do the podcast, I realized that the next evolution is a book like the next vertical, the next medium that I should get into to introduce my stuff to new people or to help broaden the way people experience the podcast would be a book that supplements and really condenses all the information.

Jessica 

Were you surprised while writing the book? How much because I find to having a podcast is great. And it’s like, wow, we could talk about anything for a long time. But you can’t sometimes get into the the nitty gritty or talk about things that are really, really detailed or like bring in studies and things like that, because sometimes it’s just a bit too dry for a podcast Did you find when you’re writing the book, like, Oh, I’m bringing a lot of new stuff in here. And this is really exciting, because this is like, gonna kind of maybe surprise some people. Or finally I get the opportunity to go a little bit deeper than I can in other mediums.

Jamila 

I felt that part of it was overwhelming, because I have so many ideas and frameworks, because the way I think about and explain things, I like to break things down into frameworks and steps. And to hopefully make it easy to understand I need, I need things to be easy to understand. And so I like to explain things in that way. And so I had all these concepts and ideas. And so to get it into something where another person could follow. Because you know what you on the podcast, of course, you want to make sure people can follow that to their listening. But to put it in a book and all the options like I could have went a lot of different scenarios or ways to put the book together and to come up with a way that I felt people could follow that was new, because my biggest thing is because we’re in this space. And so we know a lot of people who write books about money, we know people who talk about money is how to do this in a way where it’s fresh and new. Because there’s been so many ways you could tell someone that they should budget or do certain things. So I just was like, what is the essence? Why do people like the podcast? And how do I capture that? In the book, and that was my main like goal. And so I tried to just figure out the best way to do that. And I think I did I definitely think we hit we did it. Well, I hope so when people start reading it, to capture that information and get it down into something steps, legitimate practical steps that people can follow to reach their goals.

Jessica 

So with that, because yeah, you and me, we’ve interviewed a lot of people, we’ve read a lot of books. And I know sometimes I feel like I’ve read it all. I’ve seen it all. I’ve heard it all, how were you able to craft this framework for your book that was fresh and new when literally nothing is new? And make it your voice? And understandable and easy? Like what was your I guess, idea for the book? What did you want to say that you felt like needed to be said by you specifically? Right.

Jamila 

So I just felt like there was a gap missing. And even with the podcast, I think why? I mean, I think I started the podcast at a great time years ago. So 2017. So there were podcasts about money, but I don’t think a lot we’re talking about financial independence. And if they were they were by white men. So I think my perspective and voice in the space at that time was unique. And I think what was also really good is that I bridge that gap between general personal finance content. So all the things that we should know or should have been taught, budgeting what’s investing in the just basic stuff to this idea and is very ambitious goal of the fire movement, financial independence retire early. And this concept of investing, and saving money to where you don’t have to ever work again actively. And I think there is a missing space in which someone is talking about both in a way how to teeter between both how to use the basics, to achieve this big, audacious goal. But then to make it more attainable more realistic for the people who don’t want to spend only $20,000 a year who know they’re realistic things that impact people’s abilities to reach financial independence. And so I wanted to make sure that there that what the podcast captured and why people liked the podcast was because why I was this woman is black woman, this immigrant woman talking about this concept in a plain relatable way. So it’s like, well, the book obviously has to be that. And it has to break it down. Because a lot of the books I feel like even when I read about financial independence, it’s still just I don’t always relate to the voice, or the basic personal finance stuff. I’m like, that’s great, but I don’t like to me, following the basic stuff will have you living the basic life to where you retire at the basic age if that because some people don’t even aren’t able to retire at all. So I wanted to make sure that was presented in a way that people can follow. Whether they’re just now understanding like what financial independence is or just starting their personal finance journey. How can I do in a way that’s relatable and also practical. So yes, inspiration is important. Motivation is important, but what are the actual steps? How does one get from understanding the concept but then Starting from wherever they’re starting from, to apply it to their own life. And so I tried to break the book down in that way. So it’s broken out into four parts. Part one is the what, why and how financial independence, I felt it was important to break down not only my framework, so I have a couple new frameworks that talk about financial independence in a way that I hope is fresh to people. But then what it is for someone who has no clue what it is and why they should pursue it. And then the second part of the book is how to create your plan. So this pie in the sky goal that we talked about never having to work again, like what is creating a plan to get there look like? And then the third part is all about executing your plan. So once you have this initial plan, what are the actual steps you need to do to get there? And then the last part is about enjoying your journey? Because what’s the point if you can’t enjoy it? And so I think I was able to break down everything in a way that hopefully is relatable and practical for people.

Jessica 

I’m guessing that you go beyond because I see a lot of this online, or even some of the books that I’ve read in the past where they talk a lot about like the theory and concepts when it but when it you know, people pick up those books who like no, like, I literally want the steps, I want to know how and then they just give out the oh, well just times your living expenses by 25, then 4% rule. And then you’re like, Well, I read the whole book just for that it could have googled that. So I’m curious for you. What was I mean, not to like, give your whole book away. But what was your different kind of methodology that you wanted people to know, besides just like the stuff that everyone’s heard? And and also to like, I’m curious, because the last time we spoke is a couple of years ago, where are you at on your own financial independence journey, like, obviously, you have a business, you’re actively working, but you’re working towards that goal, what’s going on.

Jamila 

So I am currently in what I call, there’s five stages that you need to travel through to reach complete financial independence, I think it’s important for people to understand where they are, where they fall into the stages of the journey, so that they understand what they need to do to move forward if they so choose to move forward. And for me, I’m in what’s called stage four of the five stages. Stage one, yes. So that’s exciting. It is exciting. And I think, honestly, I think so there’s this thing like is financial independence really attainable for everyone. And I honestly, if I’m being honest about it, I do think that it’s for some people, it will be harder to achieve or impossible. But it’s almost just like, by starting the journey, the moon goals, when I call it like this big, audacious goal, like you will can’t end up not in a better place because of all the things that requires of you to do. So there’s five stages. The first stage is the what I call the Explorer stage, just getting to financial stability. The second stage is what I call the cadet stage, it’s getting out of debt, working on your debt freedom. The third stage is the aviator stage that’s working on financial security. So you don’t have any debt anymore, you’re working on building your assets. The fourth stage is work flexibility, you achieved a place in your life where work is flexible, so you still need to work. But you can take time off, you can take time off to start a family to travel the world to change careers to start a business, you know, you can take a pause, if you need to leave a situation that’s not helpful or a person that’s not helpful to you, right. And then the fifth stage is ultimate financial independence, the captain stage, you can literally never work again. And so I believe in my heart that everyone can reach this stage for the commander stage in which work becomes flexible, or you have more options in what you do for work. But you don’t get to get to that level unless you actually achieve or try to achieve the ultimate level. And so I’m in this stage now where I was able to, I think when by the time I spoke to you, I would I would have already quit my job because I quit into as an 18. And so I reached work flexibility back into as an 18. And I’m still on my journey towards financial independence. Because you know, I don’t know if I want to do this, like for another 510 years, I want to be able to have other options. But I could stop like I could take a couple years off, I could choose chooses to do something different. And I think that that flexibility is something everyone can achieve by going through the stages. And that’s kind of where I am now where you know, we could have another conversation in four or five years. And I might still be at this stage, or I might have reached my financial independence point. But I think understanding where you are in the journey, and then what’s really important is your own desires and goals will really define like what the ultimate journey looks like to you.

Jessica 

Yeah, no, I think that’s a really important point. Because especially when you you look online or you’re doing research about fire, sometimes it seems like there’s a right way and a wrong way. But I think we’ve had this conversation before and I think why people are really attracted to your podcast is because you talk a lot about how no it is personal it is different for everybody it is there’s no right or wrong way to do it. You can you know make whatever version of it you want. And so sometimes that is you know about going against the quote unquote fire rules. But I think that’s really important to determine what are your goals and your values? And like, what do you actually want? And also, I think, probably and this is probably something you discuss in the book, too, probably the why stage of the book is talking about, you know, why do you actually want this because often a lot of people think they want the financial independence and never have to work again, because they just hate their job. And you’re like, well, there’s no more to it than that, you know, like, then just quit your job, like, look for another job. But you know, you don’t want to be in a miserable job while you’re working towards FYI. Because Gosh, that’s, that could take years.

Jamila 

Yeah, that’s what I talked about that, like, because the understanding your why and your why can change. And, you know, but for most people, they it’s not that they don’t want to work. It’s more I mean, there are some people who literally are like, I don’t want to work, right? Like I actually want to be on the beach every day and not do anything. Yeah. But I do truly feel like most people want purpose in their life. Not that you have to run yourself ragged and be stressed out but want to want to contribute want to feel good about the things they contribute to the world want to be helpful and want to get paid for it. So it’s not necessarily about never working. Again, I think a lot of people are just working in oppressive or confined environments where they can’t be themselves, where they can have control over their time where they’re online, have these long commutes were they working with people they don’t like and so when people start to understand that, that is the reason you want to reach financial independence. That’s actually not that’s not a bad reason. I mean, I think reasons like that actually push you to do the work because you’re like, I gotta get out of here. And that’s what pushed me not that I, I liked my job. It’s just, I didn’t like being confined to a cubicle, people telling me what to do. I was starting a family and I knew I wanted this flexibility that I could pick my kids up, or not leave them in after school, do my own thing. But I wanted that for my life. And so I was very committed to figuring that out. And I just feel like for a lot of people, like that’s what they’re looking for just options and flexibility. And if you love your job, I always say this, I’m not someone that says everyone should be an entrepreneur or everyone to quit their job, because as you know, doing this full time.

Jessica 

I mean, it’s not all roses and daisies. Yeah.

Jamila 

And also so you know, I encourage people to figure out what truly makes them happy, or what it is that they’re trying to run away from in terms of trying to pursue financial independence. Because whatever that thing is, usually follows you anyway. So you know, my thing of not wanting or liking a boss, I realized that I actually don’t like to be my own boss, I don’t like anyone even like telling myself what to do. I don’t like other people telling me what to do. And I don’t like telling myself what to do. And so, you know, yes, I’m privileged in the fact now that I do control my own time. But it’s still some of the same issues maybe or things that bothered me in the past. I mean, I don’t really have co workers anymore, except for you know, distant co workers, like yourself, we see each other online. But it’s the same thing. It’s like it doesn’t go away. And so that’s why I think the journey to financial independence is much of much as much of an internal journey as external. Because the goal is to find what brings you joy on the path and how to be okay with uncertainty and things aren’t going right and dealing with people because that doesn’t change. And you can like blame it on your current situation and say, when I reached financial independence, or when I have all the money or pay off all the debt, then I’ll be happy. And what happens is you reach those points, and then you’re still not happy. And so it’s about understanding what that looks like on the journey so that you can have a full life while you’re traveling the path.

Jessica 

Yeah, and I think that’s the the reason what I always really liked how you talked about fire and financial independence is you’re very clear, like money isn’t the solution to all of your problems, your problems will still be there. Because depending on what those problems are you gonna there’s there’s different ways that you have to kind of address them and solve them. And money isn’t. I mean, just again, look at all the people who have all this wealth. You find out later they’re miserable, they have all these problems, but again, they’re different problems that maybe you and I, you know, deal with on a daily I’m curious, going back to kind of the idea of, you know, starting out creating that kind of foundation, that kind of launch pad I’m sure part of it is like, obviously, here’s some financial things you need to do to get things sorted. But also, I’m sure part of it is like that mental, making sure you’re in a good mental space. Because, believe me, I’ve seen a lot of people who have like, Oh, I just want to quit my job or they did quit their job without maybe too much of a plan. And they’re kind of not psychologically ready for the journey that is like either starting their own business or whatever the case is of a starting they’re kind of financial independence journey. And I think that’s not really talked about too too much is how to not just financially prepare, but psychologically prepare for this big challenge ahead of you.

Jamila 

Yeah, you know, it’s, I think there’s a bunch of things you need to do. Some of the involves maybe professional help. So therapy, which I think is important and you know, necessary for a lot of people finding whether other faith you do have. So whatever religion and you know, the God that you believe in figuring out what that relationship looks like. So I talked about mindset and habits a lot in the book. So that’s the external things that we all want to do make more money, pay off debt, increase assets, you know, all that. But the internal stuff, the way you feel about your life, your happiness, like the internal stuff matters, just as much, or if not more, to make the journey sustainable. So in order to think about what’s truly making you happier, why you’re doing the things you’re doing with getting outside perspective is helpful or finding something that anchors you, right, where you do feel confident, help is helpful. Obviously, community is helpful. So surrounding yourself, not only with hopefully, family and friends that can support you on this journey, and that you can be honest with, but people who have done what you’re trying to do, and finding communities like that, whether it’s following someone online, of course, you still have to be wary of people online, because a lot of people post things. And it’s not true, like they’re not living the life here. But finding people or the entrepreneurs, who may be a couple steps ahead of you, or those little pockets of groups, Facebook groups or local groups that you can meet with and talk to, because sometimes I think it’s the unknown, or we don’t like know what to expect, because we can’t know what to expect. But if you are talking to someone who can be honest with you, like hey, so when I quit my job, to start my business, these are some of the things I encountered. So you just want to be aware of that and know that that might come up for you. I just think overall, there’s some things you also can’t hedge for. So even for me, I once I found out that I was pregnant with my third child, I knew that I didn’t want to pursue financial independence in the same way. So my goal when I first started journey to launch as a blog in 2016, was I’m gonna quit my job and retire early by 40 years old, gone, then.

Jessica 

As someone who’s approaching 40, I’m like, Damn, that’s so young.

Jamila 

Well, I was. So I was actually so I was around 33 When I set that goal seven years ago for you already. But I saw, but so my goal was after learning all this content from podcasts, and blogs, and my long commute, was that, okay, I’m gonna work this job, I’m gonna invest most of the money, and I’ll be able to hit my FY number, or what we consider our financial independent lifestyle, my husband was still planning to work by 40 years old. And then as I started to do a couple years in, and we saved a lot of money, we saved and invested $169,000 As a couple, but when I got pregnant with my third child, I was like, oh, no, like, I can’t do this for another five years. Because, you know, now that was three children an hour and a half commute one way driving my work, which was, if serious work, you know, they weren’t paying me the money for nothing. And then I had this business on the side. And I was like, There’s no way I can do all this, something has to know. And so I had to change what my financial independence journey looked like, and pivoted from Okay, saving and investing in retirement accounts to let’s save and invest and create a runway so that I can explore what journey to launch looks like full time. And in doing that, we started to save money in what we call an fu fund to help cover our expenses. Now, I knew why we were saving in the fu fund, it was literally I know Johnny Cash is not making enough money to cover our expenses. So we’re, we’re gonna need to pull from this money every month. So everything worked out in terms of saving the money, I was able to quit my job after having my third child. And now it’s time to put the plan in action. Pull from this account that the whole purpose was to save in it. But even that was scary, even though that’s what I planned for, because I was so used to seeing money accumulate, I know to now see money dwindle. And not to have a clear sense of will journey’s launch actually be successful, or make enough money was scary. And so I don’t think anyone just like I was apparent, there are things people will tell you about parenthood. And you can learn you can read all the books, just like entrepreneurship or writing a book, right? Researching, but you cannot know what it’s like until you’re in it yourself. Because it’s like the things you pay other people are not like not telling you because they try to hide it. It’s just hard. You can’t even explain it sometimes what the feeling is. So I think being okay with that, and understanding that it’s going to happen and you can’t just everyday it’s not gonna be roses. And sometimes the things you wish for are not, it’s not it’s not the answer, and you have to be okay with being wrong or changing your mind. But understanding it’s not a failure, that you’re not a failure. It’s not that you made a mistake. It’s just it’s life. And that’s the whole point of the journey. And so understanding that I think is helpful, which is part of the mindset of being successful at this is understanding that you don’t have to be successful at it to be successful, if that makes sense.

Jessica 

Oh, I like that, you know, to be successful, if you say, Yeah, I mean, and also defining what success means to you because often we let others dictate that for us, and that’s when we become miserable. So when we’re chasing someone else’s goal or chasing an idea that we we didn’t even come up with, that’s when I’m miserable when I’m like, I’m not even sure why I’m chasing that anymore. I forgot what happened. We need to live more on our terms. But I think that’s so important to remind ourselves that life changes, it’s never straight, it’s always like a zigzag. And we often without maybe even being conscious of it, we pivot all the time. But when I think we start a big plan, like achieving financial independence, you know, is a very structured plan, it has to be because we have to hit these targets. And we have a target date, but life happens, you have another child, or maybe you have, you know, a family member that gets sick and you want to take care of them or so many different variables can occur. And it’s okay if things change, but like you said, there’s, you know, either it’s an internal or maybe you feel like it’s external, this kind of feeling of like, oh, my gosh, I’m a failure. I know, people who have gone back to work after maybe reaching their idea of FYI, because you’re like, I miss being around people or you miss working. I actually do like the work. Maybe I just didn’t like my last workplace. And that’s okay.

Jamila 

It doesn’t actually, life happens.

Jessica 

Life happens. I want to talk about one thing that you touched on community that’s in a really, I think, important part of any financial journey, but especially something as intense like reaching FYI. And I know there is so many different online and in person communities of people trying to do the same. I’m wondering too, though, is it difficult Have you found it difficult for the friends that you already had that aren’t on that same journey, I can imagine that it could be sometimes isolating when they’re like, they don’t get where you’re at, like, sometimes I feel like that hanging out with people, my friends who work nine to five, and I don’t work nine to five. And you know, although I remember it wasn’t too too long ago that I worked a career like that. I don’t have those same experiences. And sometimes it’s like, hard to kind of talk about what I do on a day to day because it’s not as relatable or maybe even excited, like, I’m just on my computer doing these things by myself. And I have no coworkers to do, you know, water cooler chat with and stuff like that. Like, is that something that yeah, it also needs to be kind of recognized as your friendships and your relationships for people not on this journey may change or, you know, it just yeah, it’s just gonna be different.

Jamila 

I think yeah, I think so. It depends on your personality, and like how you interact with people. So for me, you know, I’ve had like some of the same friends. Like I’m one of those people like, like, I like long term relationships. So a lot of my friends I’ve known since, you know, elementary school, high school, college and then of course, I meet new friends but so these are people who’ve known Jamila before any attorneys launch and, and I’ve always had this like ambitious they, they’ve always just remembered me just doing them, like the most are different things. And, you know, I just my expectations, like I don’t expect them to understand or want to know, I definitely if they ask me for advice, they know Jamil is like, Okay, I know she does this. I know she has a podcast. I know. She’s pursuing this. And so I’m always open to give advice. If they asked, you know, I’ve learned to just wait until someone asked me even family, you know, I have a lot of siblings, my sisters, they want advice they can ask me, but I actually don’t expect them to understand or even want them. Not that I don’t want them to understand. I want them to support me, but I don’t expect that they need to be the first one. I don’t know, like a my posts are writing under it. Like sometimes I’ll text them like Hello, like, I know that you like saw this, like, you know, you can like say something but I’m not expecting it from them. So because of that, like, I still have the relationships and friendships, and you could still do things with them. Because I’m just Jamila. And I liked that actually, I like even my husband, like, you know, we’ve been together for so long. And it’s just like, I’m just Jamila. And he understands my goals. And he’s supportive of it. But it’s, it’s my work goals and our financial goals are together. But some of that is separate too. So I think it’s understanding that, yes, you need support. But just because someone is your family or friend doesn’t mean they need to like be on the same journey with you. I think you can inspire them. You know, I’ve hoped that I inspire people just like my friends inspiring me to do different things. But it can be separate, but it doesn’t mean and yes, people may grow apart because of that. But you have to be okay with that. And so I just found that I was able to keep our relationships intact, because I’m still just me, and I still do the same things with them. And if something doesn’t work, or I don’t want to spend my money on something, I don’t do it if I do I do it. And so I just think understanding that and then maybe do having a separate group of friends or people that you met online or other entrepreneurs that you become friends with can be that where you talk about those things, but doesn’t have to be everyone doesn’t have to be everything to you. So understanding that it’s helpful.

Jessica 

Yeah, sometimes yeah, I’ve definitely realized that once I you know, started into personal finance, I started making kind of blogger friends really, oh, this is a different community that is nowhere connected to my other friendship groups because they just different things. And that’s okay to have kind of different groups for different kinds of purposes to kind of fill your needs because you are a two dimensional person. And so that makes a lot of sense. I’m going back to some of the kind of, you know, because again, you’ve got a great framework and your book. And I know that’s what most people come to a book about this for, what are if you can kind of tease or share a little bit of some of those practical things that have really helped you and other people who followed you, because I know you’ve got your podcast, but you have lots of other products like a course and things like that have helped them get to that next level level, like not just stay within that kind of basic area of like, you’re all that kind of how to personal finance, things budget, etc, etc. How do we level up in terms of maybe reaching that? FYI, that stage five in the future? Yeah.

Jamila 

So it’s understanding where you currently are. And so what, what stage you’re in, and then realizing, you know, there’s a goal in that stage. So if you are in the debt payoff stage, stage two, your main priority is paying off debt. But of course, I’m not one of those people who say wait to invest, I think you should still be investing.

Jessica 

And by debt. Do you just mean like high interest? Consumer debt? Yeah.

Jamila 

So in that stage, I’m typically talking about consumer debt, not mortgages, or student loans, as that can be extremely high and to wait to move forward, can take people decades and decades. And so it’s more about how you view debt, like, I don’t think all debt is bad, we still have a mortgage, I still use my credit cards every month to pay them off. So it depends on what you feel. But definitely high interest rate debts to pay paid off in this stage, too. But that’s your main priority outside of doing all the other thing. So once you know that, you can figure out okay, what is my end goal? Right? So, basically, it’s understanding where you currently are, and assessing what I call the six components of the FIA Formula. So four of them are tangible. So you actually can write the number down. So what’s your income? What’s your expenses? What are your current assets? And what are your liabilities? So it’s understanding that where you currently are, then it’s what’s your goal? So what is your FY goal? So people hear this? And so the concept of financial independence, never having to work again, because your investments pay for your expenses? What does that end goal look like? How much money do you need is going to be dependent on how much money you need to spend. So a quick rule of thumb is multiplying your annual expenses that you want to spend by 25. And there’s a whole thing behind what that means. But multiply it by 25, to get a quick lay of how much you need for financial independence, annual expenses, multiplied by 25. So now you have like this pie in the sky number you just came up with? And you could probably be like, Oh, my gosh, how is that possible? You know, depending on where you’re currently starting. And so the goal is, how do you map out where you are to where you want to be? And you may have said to yourself, well, this idea of financial independence sounds great. I want to be able to do in 10 years, and realize from your starting point to your endpoint, how much do you need to invest to have that much in 10 years, and you can look at all your components, assets, income, expenses, liabilities, and realize like, I actually am not going to be able to invest that much to get to that. So what do you need to change about your journey? So do you need to change your income and earn more so that you have more to invest? Do you need to change your expenses? Can you change your expenses? A combination of both? Like, what does your journey look like? And so that’s what happened, you know, just practically for me, is when I started, I said, Okay, I have this job, I can invest this much I can get there in seven years. Then, as I started, I realized I don’t want it to be this intense, you know, I want to have more flexibility with my life, I’m okay if it takes longer, because I actually now I’m switching to a career path that I enjoy more in my own business. And so it’s for the person to Now sit down and after you have your starting point, and your your first I call it your iteration, your goal is going to change but your first kind of crack at what the end goal looks like. What does the journey from where you are currently look like. And you’ll have to make changes, you’ll see that like you’ll, I had to make changes to my finances in order to save $169,000 in those two years. And, and you just have to come to a realization about the steps, or the practical things you need to do and the time it takes you because you might have said 10 years and then you look at all your numbers and your responsibilities. And the stage of the life you’re in and say that’s not realistic, maybe 15. But what happens is as you go each stage month each year, is that you get more information, you get actually more opportunities. That’s the beauty I think about the journey actually is like what changes so quickly, because you can’t help but level up because of the things you have to learn how to do. And when you end each time you level up there’s Do you things can happen quicker than you expected or take longer because you’re okay with it taking longer. And so it’s really understanding the beginning point, the end point and then kind of playing around with what the middle looks like as you go.

Jessica 

I mean, when you were talking it just reminded me of that quote, and I forget who said it’s terrible, but it’s like we can do hard things, but sometimes we don’t think we can it’s So when it comes to money just because money can be seemed like this big, scary monster that is intimidating, and we don’t know where to start, or if we’re gonna do it right. But you know, I think it’s really important. Like you’ve kind of explained him what your book is, how it’s really structured is, it is really about those baby steps not to use that term, little steps, and it’s about doing little things that then compound, and then you can take a look back a year later, you’re like, oh, my gosh, I can’t believe I did all those things. I didn’t think at the beginning beginning of the year, I’d be able to do any. So like, you know, like you said, it’s important to have sometimes a big goal that looks scary. But if you chunk up all of your steps, you’ll get like, even if you don’t get to that end goal, like retiring at 40, which is not in my cards. But again, that was never my goal anyway, but, but you’ll be able to look back and you’re like, but look how far I got anyway, you know, further than if I hadn’t started this process in the first place.

Jamila 

And that’s why I’m just like, everyone should attempt it. Because let’s just say you say, Okay, fine, Jamil, I’ll try this thing out. So my goal is to reach financial independence and 15 years, and maybe my number is 1.5 million. And you’re just like, well, I’m starting at like negative 100,000. But I’ll try it anyway. And so you slowly chip away at your dad, and then investments, he loves you do you live in life? And let’s just say in 15 years, you don’t have 1.5 million you have 500,000. Is that though failure? I don’t think so. I don’t think so. Yeah, half million. Right. And so, you know, yes. Would you have wanted more wanted to reach that earlier? But if you wouldn’t even start, where would you have been? So I do this like exercise in the book, where just like, just do like, based on your current trajectory of how much you invest? Or say, Where were you being 1520 years, wherever you’re the timeframe that you’re thinking about if you do nothing different? And then let’s just now look at small changes, let’s say I call this thing, that gap, where you find extra money to do all these things that we’re talking about, like pay down debt, invest, pay for the things you enjoy, let’s say you find $200 in your gap to put towards investments, what does that what does that change at the end of 15 years? If you find $400, in the gap? What’s and then you know, so do the calculations. And I know, for me that was most impactful, especially getting my husband on board with this whole thing. Because when I said to him, the concept, Yes, that sounds great. But like, I don’t understand it. But when I showed him the numbers, like we do nothing different. This is where we’ll be in 15 years. It wasn’t horrible, but it was just like, okay, when I showed him if we make these changes, and can find on an $800, additionally, to invest or save, this is where we can be and there’s like almost a million dollar difference. It’s kind of like, wait, what, it’s more. And so I think it’s just understanding that you can’t help but not fail in this because something will change for the better. And then you’ll be surprised at how fast or how much things can change when you start going.

Jessica 

Well, and I guess just since you mentioned your husband, I guess that’s a really important thing, if you have a partner to talk about it with them and try to get them on board. Like it seems like it’s, it’d be very difficult to be in a partnership where one person is doing it and the other person isn’t. So would you say like, it is a really important thing to be on the same page with this. I mean, money is, you know, you’re dealing with money together in some respects. So this might be something that you need to like, kind of come to, together with.

Jamila 

Yeah, you know, I I feel for me, luckily, my husband was, you know, on board, he wasn’t like, it’s like just jumping on even now. He’s not like, into money.

Jessica 

Like, you know, same with my husband, he does not care at all, like, or just like, makes him feel terrible. Like he’s like, it causes me so much anxiety. Like, don’t worry, I got it.

Jamila 

Yeah, he doesn’t, you know, he’s like that. But it’s I get, you know, like, I think to this misconception, just because you’re excited about it, because I love the couples that I interview or meet like, and they’re like, both into it. It’s kind of Oh, that’s awesome. But my husband just like my my entrepreneurship life, like he’s just not involved, which actually don’t mind, that’s fine. And so my biggest thing is he’s supportive. And so if I needed to go do things for my business, or with money, like, he trusts me, I trust him. And it’s open communication, that it’s like, do what you need to do. And that’s how I know he’s supportive versus like, trying to block me and what’s happening in my life, right. So I just think it’s helpful, it’s more helpful if you have two people working towards one goal, especially if you’re sharing expenses. And some people, you know, are everything separate, and that’s different, but we are already sharing expenses. So to be able to combine our income to be able to do this like is more powerful. And so getting to a place in which you both feel comfortable. So for my husband, we slowed up a lot in terms of how much we invest and save. We’re still on target to reach financial independence, maybe just a couple few years later, but and we can reach it earlier if we our lifestyle was less if we spent less, but we don’t want to do that. And so also incorporating what we both enjoy what he enjoys So it’s just like I know he wants I was I said this a couple of times to say in the book, he wants a nicer car. I know that. And a nicer car, though I feel like well, it increases how much we need to spend if we finance it, depending on rate, so we buy it, you know, but I’m not opposed to it, because it’s his life, too. And it’s his money also. So how do we work that into our financial plan, where we’re not delaying or putting something at risk for our own finances, but how can I help him realize what he wants, so he’s happy and same thing he does for me. So I think it’s incorporating each other’s goals, not judging each other for it. But now there’s I’m talking, I do think I’m no relationship expert. And I can only speak at myself. But maybe it’s from talking to people, I do feel like the openness or willingness to share about finances and be kind. And understanding about it, even if you feel differently is a like, smaller indication, I think of overall relationship. So not saying that, like, if your finances are crap with your partner, then your whole relationship is, but I feel like if you’re afraid to talk to your partner, or have those open conversations, sometimes it’s a bigger issue at hand. And not that my husband and I don’t have issues, but I just feel like we operate like that, in general, like with the respect League, especially with having three kids, and that how we have to be a team for that. And so it comes through in our finances to where we’re understanding. So I just think some of that may take therapy outside of finances. Yeah, for you to get with your partner.

Jessica 

I mean, huge. You know, everyone who listens to my podcast knows I’m a big advocate for therapy in any kind of way. But yeah, especially if you’re a couple and you are like, gosh, this is like a heart like, I can do this on my own. But I don’t know if I can get my partner on board. And you know, striking up a conversation about it sounds really difficult. That may be an indication that there’s some other underlying issues if if money is difficult to talk about, because it is such an important part of a relationship, because it is yeah, you know, it’s not just about love, it is also about assets and liabilities and things like that, and, and all that kind of stuff. So definitely look for either a couples therapist, or there are financial therapists out there, or a financial planner. There’s lots of different professionals out there that can help ease it because it is not easy. have those conversations and, and it’s never going to be perfect, believe me and my husband still like it’s never He never enjoys having conversations about money just because all these other things, but right, you know, it’s important to to have those conversations even though it’s difficult. So you can, you know, respect each other and be on the same page? Because, you know, that’s yeah, eventually whether you retire early or just retire, eventually, you’re eventually going to have to figure that out together. Right?

Jamila 

I feel like having the partner that works for you is it’s an it’s a financial decision. Also, yes, it’s based on love and compatibility and all these things. But having a supportive or the relationship that works for you is impacts your finances and career so much, especially as a woman, if you’re wanting to have kids like that. You need someone who can understand what that is, and be equal support or equal partners partner in the household and outside the household to help, like, do their part.

Jessica 

Absolutely. I know, there’s so many other things that we could talk about, but I am just so excited for your book to come out. I think this was you know, a long time coming. I know people will absolutely love it. So I highly encourage people to grab a copy of your journey to financial freedom a step by step guide to achieving wealth and happiness. Where can people find more information, grab a copy of the book and follow you on all of your social channels and website.

Jamila 

Yeah, so you can go to your journey to financial freedom.com I know it’s kind of long, but you can do it your journey to financial freedom.com That’s the book website. You can go there depending on when this comes out. You’ll probably get a free bonus for buying the book and you can buy it anywhere so you can go there, get your free bonus free course right now it’s a course but I know it’s going to be that by the time this comes out and put your information in but then you’ll see all the places you can buy bookshop.org Support your local bookstores, Amazon, you know target all the online retailers and then you can find me at journey to launch on all social channels Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, I mostly hang out on Instagram. And I’d love to hear if you listen to this podcast what you got out of it or if you enjoyed it I always say tag us tag us so we know you listen.

Jessica 

Yeah that well thank you so much Jamila for coming back on the show and I’m excited to continue to follow your journey and and excited to see the book come out so you know thanks again for coming.

Jamila 

You so much Jessica for having me.