[Ep. 378] The Inclusive Workplace Revolution with Ayo Owodunni

Jessica 

You’re so welcome. So I’m thrilled to have you on the show. I think this is a really important topic. And you have a book coming out which I’m very excited for you about but you know, let’s get to know you a little bit more you have accomplished a lot over the past number of years. And are you still a city councilor? Is that still something that’s on your resume or? Wow, yeah, you’re a busy guy. So tell me a little bit about I know one of the things that you do is your management consultant. And you know, you do coaching and of course, like I mentioned, you have a book coming out called inclusive leadership, the immigrant view the guide to helping immigrants thrive in your organization. You know, you are an immigrant yourself from Nigeria to Canada. I want to kind of dive in and get to know your story a little bit more because I think it’d be really helpful for listeners to know what was your experience like and then how did that I guess ultimately impact you to want to be able to educate leaders but also immigrants, so they can, you know, arrive in Canada or whatever other country and thrive ultimately.

Ayo 

Thank you. So I moved here in 26 Scene from Nigeria. Prior to moving here, I turned down a VP row at a media firm back home. And my wife and I just felt we wanted a place where we could raise our kids, you know, back in Nigeria, you would be in traffic for two and a half hours to get your date. Wow. Yeah, so it was one of those hectic type situations. And we just didn’t want that for the kids. So we felt you know, Canada would be a good place. And lo and behold, we landed in a random city called Kitchener. And here we are years later, I was city councilor in Kitchener. When I first arrived, I would say the landing process for me was a bit smoother, I had someone that could cosign for me, and for my wife and I, because we had family members that had been here for some time. So finding a house, even though it was difficult compared to what I hear from other immigrants was not as hard buying our first car was not necessarily as hard. But we also face those challenges where landlords didn’t want to rent to us because we didn’t have credit history. Because as a new immigrants, you got to have credit history to get a new car. If you weren’t paying cash, and you needed to have credit history, or your interest rates would be very high, which will affect you or get in a job, I actually ended up going for an entry level position in a consulting firm, or just to get into the system. So I would say not necessarily as hard as others other stories that I’ve heard, but it was challenging in itself. And I went through my period of depression. In fact, that was one point, I didn’t go to work for three days, because I was just so depressed, I hated when my life was I hated where I was, I hated the situation, looking at, you know, where I was, in comparison to where I felt I should be, there was a huge gap. And I’m sure you’ve probably heard this, you know, depression tends to kick in where our expectations is very, it’s not close to our reality. And there are so many immigrants that have gone through the same exact situation even worse than I have, and I felt there was a need to tell their stories.

Jessica 

Well, I know from talking to friends of mine who have emigrated to Canada from a different country, that that depression or you know, you go through these different phases, which seems only natural, you’re I mean, I cannot imagine moving to a completely different country with different laws, different cultures, just different, you know, it’s everything is different. And then, and I think likely, probably where it lots of that those those kind of emotions come from is you have one idea of what it’s going to be like, and you’re like, it’s gonna be so much better there, I’m going to be able to achieve this and that it’s gonna be great. And then you land here and you realize, Welcome to Canada. It’s not it’s not like the movies, or it’s not like, you know, maybe what you imagined. And there’s a lot of barriers to you know, although we’re, you know, in general, a country, that’s very pro immigration, and you know, everyone’s welcome. It’s, you know, I’m sure your experience has been like, not everyone feels like that, or there’s a lot of things that you have to kind of go through that you’re like, Oh, didn’t expect that. I’m curious, especially with you, what were some of the hardest things getting started, especially those first two years are probably the hardest, really kind of setting that foundation for yourself and figuring out also to like, do we want to stay in Kitchener? Or do we want to move to a different city? Is it going to be better? Or is it just like, that’s just going to restart the cycle? What was your you know, what did you feel like when those first couple years.

Ayo 

The first couple of years, so, in the book, I talk about three phases of our journey. At first is the survival phrase, that’s when you come in, you apply for 200 jobs, you don’t get a call back. Many of us come with a mindset of Oh, I was a director of my country then apply for Director roles in Canada, or Canada laughs at you, when you do such a thing? It’s like, How dare you think you can come in at the same position? So you start going through that phase? You’re trying to understand the language? Yes, we speak English just like you do. We’ve spoken English all our lives. However, you speak a lot faster, here in Canada. So it takes some adjusting for us. And then not only that, there’s something that I called the indirect way that Canadians speak where you don’t speak directly you speak indirectly, you know, you don’t say someone is selfish, you tell them perhaps you should be more selfless in the whereas in Nigeria, they would just say you’re selfish.

Jessica 

That I wish we were more direct, don’t make, you know, solve a lot of problems.

Ayo 

You know, but what what, what that does is it creates confusion. We’re both speaking English but we’re speaking two different types of English and it just can lead to frustration as well. So those are some of the things that I went through where you know, we’re speaking English, but I’m trying to under what exactly is my boss trying to say, and data? You know, there was data by windmill microlending, where they talked about 41% of immigrants talk about their stress at the workplace, HR reported.com talks about, I believe, is 70 something percent of racialized Canadians fill in at guard at the workplace. And it’s easy to understand why, you know, when you’re going through that survival stage, and you’re trying to understand your new culture, understand the new workplace, understand how things are done in the new country, you’re still trying to settle with your family. And then on the other hand, you have your you have things taking place in other aspects of your life as well. So all of it just coming together can be an overwhelming experience. And then because you’re an immigrant, you’re new. So who do you trust? Who can you confide in? Who can you share those things with? That’s another layer. So you’re holding and bottling a lot of these things inside, you don’t want to call people at home to share some of your concerns. So many times you have to go through that journey by yourself. And what I like to say to organizations is you have this person coming in with so many gifts and talents and ideas and exposure and experience and education. Like think of a scale of one to 10. Like if you can just help them settle better, they can get to 10 a lot quicker, rather than their left by themselves. And they’re giving you an output of a five, you know, at the end of the day, and there was that gap that you can tap into simply by helping them integrate into the workplace a lot better and quicker.

Jessica 

Do you think the the big problem, especially talking about workplaces is there’s an I knew you talked about this in your book, and I think this is something that does need to change within like every you know, workplace every industry is that the workplace will expect you to assimilate into what already exists in the works was like no, no, here’s the slot, you need to fit into this, this slot, instead of being like you are a you know, complete human, we should take a look at what are the differences? How can we accommodate I mean, I’ve never been in the workplace where they were accommodating me, I’ve always had to be like, Oh, I have to be whatever mold that they want to be. And I think that’s part of the problem is because then you’re like you said it’s there’s so much. There’s so many different skills and talents out there that you’re completely ignoring. Because you’re not even asking those questions about well, what can you do? What, what do you bring to the table? You’re just like, can you do this? Because they have this checklist of things. Great. And then then you wonder why are they not, you know, providing that output? It’s like, may I mean, there’s a lot of reasons you didn’t ask any of the important questions.

Ayo 

Absolutely. There is a great example around that. There’s a friend of mine who years of experience as an engineer, as worked in multiple countries across Africa, in India, as an engineer managed multiple projects from scratch. So you’re talking about education, he has a you’re talking about the exposure, he has the experience, he has it, he moves over to the to us at this point and was working for an organization and probably about six months in he goes into Hanson his resignation letter to his boss and said he’s going back to his country. And you know, for the first time the boss was like, oh, sorry to hear this. I was not aware. I thought you’d like to care. Can you? Is there anything we can do? How can we help. And my my friend said, there is no African food, there’s no Nigerian food, and I can’t eat the type of food that you eat. So I’m going back home. And then the boss goes, oh, there is another Nigerian employee at the other side of the office, let me introduce you to that person. They make a quick introduction and individual says, Oh, by the way, there is a there is a there’s an African store where you can buy all your African goods, you know, and oh, there was an African community that we can plug you into. There’s this and that. And you know, when he shared the story, the first thing that came to my mind is so we waited till we handed in his resignation letter to make an attempt that probably took only 30 minutes change the trajectory of everything, you know, he ended up staying with the organization. But why would you are you willing to lose someone, just because you’re not willing to take 30 minutes of effort to just ask how can we better support you? And it’s an area where we can do better in terms of improving employee engagement, not just for immigrants, for anyone, you know, how are things going? How can we better support you? How’s it going so far? What are you liking here? What is frustrating for you, you know, what can we do to better accommodate those types of things allows the person to say if this people are thinking about me this much, I can give more to the organization. And for some reason, we like to give the barest minimum as an organization and we expect the maximum output from each individual, but you’re not getting the maximum output if you’re not treating each individual as they need and the areas that they that we need to tap into as well.

Jessica 

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it reminds me of I was talking to someone about just the term that we use for HR human resources. It’s like, oh, yeah, they don’t think of us as people they think of us as a resource to tap into. And if, you know, the resource seems, oh, you know, sector dry, let’s get a new one a new resource. And that’s like, I mean, a bigger conversation about just the problem and, you know, corporate North America. But yeah, like you said, Why aren’t these leaders asking those important questions? I mean, I wonder, specifically with the immigrant employees, is it really, one of the main issues probably is leadership, especially high leadership is white, and they are just afraid of saying the wrong thing of, you know, accidentally revealing their racist or, or they’re just afraid of, you know, saying anything that could make anyone uncomfortable. And so they don’t ask anything. They don’t say anything. They don’t, you know, have that safe space to have those important conversations to make sure that your employees are happy, healthy, and are getting what they need. Do you think that’s a big part of it?

Ayo 

Absolutely. In fact, in the book, the first two challenges, I give leaders number one, you have to have courage, you have to have courage to overcome the uncertainty around Oh, I don’t want to say the wrong thing. So I decide not to say anything at all. Because the value that you can gain at the end of the day is so much more than that. McKinsey did a study and they discovered organizations that had more cultural diversity, had 36% more profitability than those that do not. So whenever I run sessions, so I’m meeting with leaders of organizations, I challenge them, the Northstar, the 36%, profitability is when you is there after you take that bold step of courage, okay, you say the wrong thing. So what I’m sorry, move on, let’s move on with our lives. And let’s continue the conversation. So it’s important, the first challenge is that you have to be courageous to have those conversations. The second challenge is you have to be willing to connect and build trust with people, and many times people are so afraid. And honestly, may I also say, I don’t think we can blame people. I think we’ve created a culture around diversity, equity and inclusion where people are afraid, people don’t want to be seen as the racist. So rather than ask the question, or make your comments, people will shut their mouths and don’t say anything at all. And for me, I’m like, let’s get the elephant out. Let’s just say and let’s talk about it. And I’ve had a CEO of an organization when I was coaching the organization had mentioned, so are we saying that we should get rid of all our leaders and bring diverse people in? That was his question. And there was nothing you can say, unless you address that issue with him. But if he feels unsafe to bring it up, he’s just gonna hold that in. And you will never have someone in a position to be able to, to get hired in that position, because in the back of his mind is thinking, Oh, they want us to get rid of everyone that has worked hard, that has a family to feed. So get rid of them and hire diverse people. I’ve had another recruiter actually say to me, you know, when I see a university that I know of in Canada, in comparison to a university in Egypt, or India or Nigeria, I will know them. So I feel more comfortable with this university. Thank you for bringing it up. Yes, we know case studies has been done and research has been done and statistic proves that people think but thank you for sharing it. Now let’s talk about, you know, the economic category and what it takes before an immigrant even gets into this country. And many people don’t know that. And when I was sharing those things with him, like, are you aware we’re bringing in the best of the best of nations across the world? Are you aware of that? You know, and for her, it’s an eye opener, I ensure that Oh, okay. I didn’t know that. I wasn’t aware of that. So that individual coming into your organization, is the best of the best from his country. And he can compete anywhere in the world. So consider it a privilege that the individuals applying at your workplace. However, we can’t have those conversations if those people don’t open up and share those things. And they won’t open and share unless we create a safe space for them to share those things as well. So for all of us listening, we need to be able to create that safe space for people to share. And we need to be understanding Yes, we can hold people accountable to what they say and do, but also find a balance between accountability and empathy.

Jessica 

Yeah, I wonder, too, you know, for people listening, depending on, you know, what kind of role they hold in the company, how can you try to help this because I know, there’s lots of big organizations out there, and you’re like, I have no power unless I’m in the C suite. And obviously, those people do have, you know, a big voice, and they’re the ones that really should be leading this change. But if you were just an employee, and you realize, well, we do not have, you know, a diversity and inclusion committee, we’ve never had anyone come to speak about, you know, any of that stuff. And, you know, really, it should be kind of integrated into every organization. Now, is there anything that I can do? Is there anything that I can bring up to leadership, so we can kind of start, you know, putting some things in motion, you can hire me. Like me leading you in, but…

Ayo 

That was a homerun hit right there. Thank you for setting that up. Well, I think one, they can buy a book and share that with their with their leadership, too. Can you be a mentor by us to say the best way to show a line as crooked is by putting a straight line next to it. So you be the example that the organization should follow. And you’ll be shocked that people will start paying attention. I’m the quote unquote, first black city councilor in the City of Kitchener. So there are times when things happen within the black community, and people look up to me to find out okay, how should we take leadership in this area, and I have to lead with my behavior, not just with my words, but with also with my behavior. And I think we can all do that you can coach, individuals that come into your organizations who are immigrants, if I have a funny story, when I first arrived, we were having an event at the consultant firm, and they had all this food and you know, I run in allow Yes, food, I grabbed my meal, and I start eating. And I will never forget it. One of my colleagues literally leans over. And she whispers in my ear in Canada, we wait to everyone gets the food. You know, before we all start eating, like my, my face was already stuffed. Yeah, no, I was stopped. And I’m like, oh. But no one else would have shared that with me. And that could have held me back. And all you would hear is you get fired. And they’ll say, Oh, you’re not a fit for our culture.

Jessica 

But and you’re like, What the hell does that mean? That can mean a million things.

Ayo 

And there’s so many times that happens to people that they don’t even know why, you know, there were five, but just the, you know, those little words that she shared with me that day or another colleague one day, I made a comment, and I still am embarrassed. You know, I she came in one day, and I was like, Oh, you look tired. And then she whispered to me, you don’t tell a woman she looks tired, you know, that kind of thing. And I was like, Oh, I’m so sorry. Till today. When I see her. I’m like, I’m so sorry for what I said six years ago. And she’s like, Stop apologizing, like, it’s over. It’s gone. But that willingness to coach? Yeah, was so crucial and important. Imagine I said that to a VP in the organization? He’s not moving up.

Jessica 

You know, that’s yeah, that’d be like that guy’s room. Exactly.

Ayo 

I didn’t know those things. Yeah, I didn’t know those. Were probably a bit too direct to Nigeria.

Jessica 

Again, yeah, the direct versus indirect. This is like, you know, we don’t say what we, we just, you know, we hold it all in. She was just saying, expect you to read her mind.

Ayo 

Alright, so that was being carried. And she was like, No, that was rude. Don’t ever say that. Oops. So you can and if you are in a position to join in a in an interview, you can jump into an interview and interview someone from a diverse background, you can be part of that onboarding experience, you can say, hey, I’m willing to work and mentor that person in the organization. If your hiring manager, give someone an opportunity, as well. So there are so many things we can all do as individuals don’t just say I don’t have the power, you can try something else.

Jessica 

Now. I guess one thing I also see him have conversations about this is, especially to if you are feeling there is resistance in your organization. They aren’t yeah, as you kind of say that not creating that psychologically safe space for you. At a certain point, you can’t necessarily move the mountain and it may be safer and smarter for you just to exit because you can’t change the world if the world doesn’t want to change kind of thing. So so what what point when you are maybe you’re in an organization, maybe you’re trying to do things, maybe you’re talking to colleagues to say, oh, maybe we should, you know, really, you know, change some of the culture here just because maybe you’ve worked another organization that was very open and safe, and it’s just not moving. At what point do you say, Okay, if this isn’t my problem to fix, I need to move on.

Ayo 

That is a great question. I think it’s different for all of us. Some people have a low threshold for things like that, and there’ll be On quickly, and some people, they are just like, Oh, it doesn’t matter to them. But I would say, when you feel like hypocrisy is growing, you need to get out when you feel you’re not walking the talk as an organization, you need to find your exits. Because you don’t want to be in such an organization and you’re becoming cynical, or it’s rubbing off on you, or you don’t want to be that person your friend wants to is thinking about coming to the organization ask you about it, you’re like, Oh, you don’t want to come here. The very next question is, and you’re like, Why? Why are you there? You know, exactly. There’s some people that feel I can be the change and more power to you, please push to be the change. But if you just feel like it’s an uphill battle, and there is just nothing that can be done, then by all means, you need to start planning your eggs, but please plan it wisely. Don’t just quit and get out.

Jessica 

I’m curious, do you have any tips or you know, what is a graceful way to exit because I feel like a lot of people, that’s one thing, we learn a lot about the hiring process, how to get the job, we do not learn how to exit. And it’s like, what I found, even though Canada’s big, it’s also small. So you do not want to burn a bridge, you gotta be careful, you gotta be, you gotta leave with some grace.

Ayo 

Absolutely. And I’ve stayed connected to several of my old bosses. In fact, there was a boss after I was actually fired. I called about two months later and said, I would like your feedback. I’m not recording this conversation. I promise. I’m not thinking of suing or anything like that. But I want to grow as a person, what did I really do wrong so that I can get better. And he shared some tips with me, which I wrote down. And I said, thank you very much. It was a painful call, I hated the call. You know, it was embarrassing, but I wanted to grow as an individual because I knew the the plans I had for my life moving forward. And I felt okay, there was something they must have seen that either I am blind to, or it’s just flat out racism, like I wasn’t sure some like, okay, one or the other. And I didn’t know which one, though. So let me fix the part that I need to fix. And then hopefully, they’re able to fix the part that they need to fix, as well. So I think it’s important for you to be wise, as you’re exiting, I believe in the importance of calling a leader before I send an official letter, I usually like to make that call to let my boss no first, before he receives a random email from me. He or she receives a he or she or they excuse me, receive a random email from me so that way, they’re they feel that level of respect. They feel respected. And then I just, this is my process. This is what I’m thinking of over the net. What do you need from me? That type of thing. And doing exit interviews, please, it is not your time to give them a piece of your mind. It’s not a time to curse people out. Because think of it as three years from now I can meet these individuals again.

Jessica 

What if they’re at a different organization that you’re right, like it’s a small town in this country? Somehow it is. Yeah, it’s weird. But you’re like, Oh, shoot. Okay,

Ayo 

exactly. So you need to be really wise, a former individual that I was reporting to wrote an endorsement from my book, oh, there you go. I spoke to my former boss three days ago, because he started a business. And he called me because he needed help in an area that he saw was a strength of mine. So he was calling me for advice for his business. I have done business with a former boss, where I paid my former boss to come to consult and work with me. So I’m just sharing that with people. So you’re aware that you shouldn’t just end it. If we can find strengths. And people, you can always find a way to work with people as well. So yes, Be wise on how you do it. Because you just never know what the future holds.

Jessica 

I think that’s even just a really great idea for anyone who who, especially to if they’re on their way out, because it’s not their choice. Having those that conversation and maybe to it makes more sense after the fact after you’ve maybe settled after a few months, and you’re not as emotional to have that conversation. Like I want to get some feedback, because obviously I was like, oh, for a reason. I can’t really connect the dots myself, because I thought it was doing a good job. Can you give me some feedback, and I’m sure the feedback that you got was really helpful for your next. You know, job. Absolutely.

Ayo 

It was very, it was very painful to hear. It was very humbling to make the call. I hated every second of it. So I’m not saying it’s,

Jessica 

I mean, not to ask what the feedback was, but what were some of the things were they things that you were blind to that you’re like, Oh, I didn’t see that.

Ayo 

Yes, I was very, I was blind to how I’d lead my team. I think I came in with a lot of energy, vibrancy. And I was asked to turn a department around. It’s something that I’ve done before. But I was good. I was moving too fast. For the team, I was moving too fast. So I think I scared people, I wasn’t carrying them along. So I think now I’ve learned the importance of. And funny I read a book, there’s a great book by an author called his name is Matt Duffy wrote a book called The Canadian workplace culture. And this is when I started connecting the dots backwards. And he talks about in Canada, you’re not just promoted because of your technical expertise, you’re promoted also based on how well your teammates respect you. So if they don’t respect you, you might not get that promotion. And I was like, Oh, wow, when back in Nigeria, you’re promoted because of your expertise. And that’s it that’s like that. Yeah, that’s the main driver. Because of you get an MBA, there’s a likelihood you’ll get a promotion. You know, you get a PhD, there’s a likelihood you get a promotion. And you come in and your team, you have power. But I needed to learn the next level of leadership, which was not power based, or title based, but influence based. So that required me to go back and start reading and reflecting and finding mentors, and you know, that type of things. So that was so helpful. It was extremely painful to hear it. But I honestly feel that it transformed me as an individual. And I don’t think I’m perfect yet. I still have a big mouth and a big head. But I’m learning the art of ensuring that I carry my people along now. And I ensure that it’s about influence now and not by title or power. So I don’t allow people to call me counselor, whatever my name is, I’ll call me IO. Or boss or sir, no, it’s IO. Or your excellency, loud, please stop that nonsense. My name is IO, or I’ve been invited to an event I intentionally sent in the back, you know, let them invite me to the front, not the other way. Like I am becoming more intentional about it. Now, because I want to be fake. But the feedback still rings in the back of my mind. Yeah, that I don’t want to ever make that mistake again. I don’t want to make that kind of call again.

Jessica 

No, oh, no, that sounds Yeah, that does sound painful. I’m curious to what are some when you are especially talking to to, you know, immigrant employees, what are some of their the things that you see that they are maybe doing wrong, that they could have, you know, like, just the feedback of like, its promotion isn’t. And that’s even something that I had to learn it myself to, I thought it was like, if I work hard, I’m gonna get promoted, never got promoted. And there was a lot of reasons for that. But you know, part of it was just like, yeah, it’s deeper than that is a bigger issue. Now, what are some other things that you’ve seen time and time again, that you see these, you know, newcomers to Canada, just kind of, they’re just kind of missing, missing one little thing that could elevate them to that next level in their career,

Ayo 

be willing to learn, be willing to get coached where we come in, because we’re the best of the best coming from our countries, it does something to your ego. Oh, so you know, come on, Oh, you were VP.

Jessica 

You’re like I’m here. And I’ve gotten so far. And now you’re telling me to start to go to the back of the line?

Ayo 

Exactly. So, in fact, the next book I’m writing is going to be focused on immigrants. Someone actually said to me, okay, now you’ve spoken to the organization’s you now need to speak to the immigrants. And a chapter I’m going to be talking about willing to get coached.

Jessica 

What do you mean by coach to because I feel like that term is so broad, and people are like, Oh, I’ve got a life coach, you know, what, what does coaching mean to you?

Ayo 

Coaching is Unlocking Potential. It’s Unlocking Potential in another individual is well, from the employee side, or from the immigrants perspective is seeking someone who is ahead of you in an aspect or in an area or in an industry to be able to learn from them to gain wisdom from them, that type of thing. I can give you several examples for myself, let me we’ll start with this. I know of an individual who lost their job in his organization, because work was brought to him and his response is, this is beneath me.

Jessica 

And this isn’t part of my job description.

Ayo 

Yes, part of my job description, but the culture of the organization is we all roll up our sleeves here, even the CEO takes our trash. Okay, because he’s the CEO, I know the CEO. Well, so once they heard that for them, it was like, no, not our culture that probably worked well in your country, but not here. So are we willing as well to be able to find someone that can say, Hey, you can’t do that. I was part of an interview panel once and an individual who had just arrived a few months prior was talking to the recruiter who was a lady and said, you know, called her girl and I had to stop The interviewer right there and say, No, we don’t say that here in Canada, you know, but in her mind, I might, I might be wrong. I think she probably just gave him a big X at that point. I know you’re not coming here, you know. But immediately once I pushed back, he was like, Oh, I’m so sorry. I didn’t know that. And we actually ended up hiring him, even after that blunder, but he was someone that was willing to be coached. I’ve just noticed people that end up doing well, they found someone that could they could sit with, to learn from to ask questions to say, I want to get better at this. So I want to grow in this organization. Can you help me? And for those that are just stubborn and feel like, Oh, I’ve done this before? I don’t need anyone. I, they tend to hit walls?

Jessica 

Yeah, of course, like you. The only way to, to grow is to admit you don’t know at all, and that you can learn some absolutely, you got to stay curious. And so yeah, like going back to the ego thing, you really need to set that ego aside. It’s difficult. I remember, man, looking back in my 20s, I had the biggest ego, when you’re like my like, how did I have the biggest ego when I had the least experience? And like, least skill set, you know, that kind of stuff? But yeah, you really have to put yourself in a position to be like, I don’t know, at all. And I can, if I set that aside, I could probably learn a lot that could get me to that next level.

Ayo 

There are so we can’t see ourselves, we don’t see our blind spots. But there are people that can see it better than us. And if we’re not willing to just ask questions, and sit down and shut up and just receive the feedback, we might not grow, we might not grow. And we need those people in our lives to help us through that process.

Jessica 

I guess on the other side of things, how can people that are more in a position of leadership or even you know, middle management? How can they be better coaches? How can they you know, also realize that, yes, you’ve made it this far. But now you have a responsibility to kind of lift up the next, you know, crew of people, how can I mentor these people. So again, not only is it great for them in their future, their whatever their paths are, but this organization, if we all work together in that way,

Ayo 

for the coaches, even beyond just responsibility, there is the benefit of fulfillments. There’s a mayor that mentors me now. And you can see the smile and the joy in his face when we talk. And he Sharon, from his experience and the mistakes he’s made and all those types of things. With me, you can feel that a for him, it’s like, there’s a younger version of me, you know, and I can help him navigate through life better through the political industry and the eggshells and all I can help him he can move quicker than I did. And he can do better than I did if I help him through that process. So there is a sense of fulfillment that that person also gains, even beyond just responsibility. So I wanted to point that out first, but for the coaches, number one, I would say you have to be willing to connect, you have to be intentional about connecting with people. And what do I mean by that? It’s a challenge. A new person joins your organization. Hey, let’s grab coffee. Yeah, like it’s that simple. Yeah. Hey, I want to learn more about you. In the book, I talk about the CEO of Dallas Mavericks, the pharmacy, you I believe sent Marshall when she first joined the organization, she made it a priority to connect with every single individual that worked in the company. She just said, Tell me your story. I would love to learn more about you a CEO of a credit union that I know of a liberal credit union former CEO now, he made it a priority to connect with a new employee once a week. Oh, yeah, whether that was and he challenged his entire leadership to do the same thing. I think he challenged him to say you know what, you might not be as crazy I may do once a month, in a year you’ve met 12 new people and they give you 12 new perspectives. So be willing to connect with people in the organization. But then he also asked a question around what can we do better as a company and that also showed he was willing to learn so what that did was like, Oh, you’ve you value my insight. Okay, I’m willing to share with you so that is important the importance of willing to connect with people and then you have to another thing that is important I don’t know how to say this. I had to find the English I’m not really good at English. Being willing to see the person become successful, you know, I don’t know how to word that well.

Jessica 

Like in a way that you’re not like feeling like your competition or something that you like, you are just you actually want them and you’re happy to see them succeed and it’s not going to affect you and your potential six Absolutely,

Ayo 

absolutely. Thank you, I think you were more specific.

Jessica 

But I’m also not sure what the proper words are. But I’m like, This is my wordy way of saying what you’re saying.

Ayo 

So I had someone who coached me a CEO of a consulting firm that after two coaching sessions, I cancelled. It was very condescending. It was very, it just felt like I am up here. And you are Oh, you know, just low down there.

Jessica 

Yeah. This doesn’t seem like this is going to be a good situation for me.

Ayo 

Whereas there is someone that I called one day, and I said, the same mayor who mentored me, I called him I said, I’m thinking about running for city council. But I don’t see any black people in that position. So I don’t know if it’s gonna, I don’t see an immigrant. And he cut me off. He said, I’ll be disappointed if you didn’t run it. He was like, in fact, I’ve been expecting your call. Wow. I’ll be waiting for you to call to say that you’re interested in running. So look at the difference between Oh, that just that sense of, Well, maybe in the future, you might have an opportunity to coach people, but I’m not sure as but let me see if I can help you. In comparison to someone. Yeah. If

Jessica 

they’re if it feels like they’re doing you a favor? Yes. And then you’re like, This isn’t? It should be Yep. Reciprocal, we’re both getting something out. Absolutely.

Ayo 

So if there is a way that you can say, I am interested in your success, and I believe in you, I believe in you so much, that I’m willing to put 30 minutes aside a woman and listen to you and pour out my heart to you, and tell you about the books, the resources, the conferences, the people, all these things and share my ideas and thoughts with you. Like I’m willing to do that I’m willing to even offend you sometimes by telling you the truth that you need to hear so that you can go back and reflect and then really work on yourself as an individual. I’m willing to do those things for you and with you. If those three things are not there? That’s a great question. Actually, Jessica, I didn’t write that in the book.

Jessica 

Your new purchase you book number two. Now I know we’re getting we’re getting close to time. But one question I’m just very personally curious about is because you were a city councilor. What was that experience? Like? I’ve not that I have any political aspirations, but sometimes I’m like, I wonder what like, what how do you even start? How do you know, especially someone who doesn’t have any political experience? How do you start a campaign or like, I guess you first have to find some mentors be like, how do I start this? But like, how was that experience? And how did that go?

Ayo 

It was stressful and exciting at the same time. Confusing yet it was complex. It was a so many things. All at the same time. I enjoyed it, because it stretched me. It stretched me in so many ways. First of all, I think the the audacity inspired people around me. No one looked like me. The first black city councilor for Kitchener ever elected in the history of our city. Yeah, I know. When we went door to door, out of the 5000 doors that we knocked on, probably only about five to 10 people look like me. Really? Yeah. Yeah, it was. And I ran against someone that I lived in a community for 26 years, and another person, I lived in a community for 40 years. And I’d only been in kitchen for six years at the time that I that I ran, I was just blown away by how the people in Kitchener or in Ward five, I always love to give a shout out to them how they were so open to accept me, their old white women would invite me in for cookies. You know, these old men will bring their chairs out and I have to find a way to get away because, you know, okay, it’s five minutes, I have to go and they want to ask Yeah, people would call and ask questions and want to know me a bit more. People were cordial and friendly. Now, because they were cordial and friendly did not mean they weren’t asking questions. They drilled me with questions. They drilled me with what is your plan? What is your vision? How do you plan to address this and this and this, they asked all those questions. But they did it while feeding me cookies. I remember there was a day it was raining, and I was standing in the rain, and I had the rain gear on or whatever. And I’m in this man’s house. And he goes come inside. And that was the first experience that I had. And I’m six foot four, by the way, so I think naturally intimidate people. And in the back of my mind, I’m going I’m six foot four. I’m a black person. You are white man. Your family’s inside of you’re asking me to come inside your house. So I actually said, Oh, no, I’m okay. And he goes, young man. Come inside. It’s raining. It’s cold. Coming side. And that was like, Oh my gosh, that is exciting.

Jessica 

And that’s a good sign at the city’s really well.  

Ayo 

You know, but what saddens me is when you listen to the media, all you hear about is the one experience or the two or three experiences. When I was interviewed by the media, this was the stories I shared with him. It didn’t make it into the news.

Jessica 

Of course not. It’s not. It was actually really nice and welcoming.

Ayo 

It’s not really, it is sad that we do that, you know, where we only talk about the two experiences. I mean, did I have a negative experience? Yeah, there were people that slammed their doors on our faces. There were people that had Nazi signs on their door, I wasn’t going to knock on it. But why do I want to talk about the five negative experiences where I can talk about the 4995 positive experiences that we went through as well, I prefer to talk about the latter, because it is important that we celebrate the wins and not only focus on oh, we need to work on this. Yes, we do. But let’s celebrate the wins as well. So people know that we are growing as a community. Yeah. And

Jessica 

encourage other people like yourself to be like, maybe I should run, maybe maybe this is actually I could actually win.

Ayo 

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I’ve had several people reach out to me saying, Hey, I’m actually thinking about running, and I like to share with them. First of all, you’re if you’re going to run, you have to be a servant leader, you are not leading Nigerians, or you’re not leading black people, or you’re not just leading Indians, you are leading all okay? Everybody, you have to be that servant leader. So I’m not willing to work with you, or coach you and mentor you, if you don’t make it beyond that level. I don’t believe in just that mindset of, oh, it’s only for my people. For me, that’s not true leadership, you have to be able to lead all and you have to be able to build influence. So you see, getting me fired actually helped me Oh, look at me talk.

Jessica 

Right. Everything kind of works itself out in a weird way. Well, I know there are so many amazing things that people especially leaders, but also employees can learn from your book, inclusive leadership, the immigrant view and I’m also excited now to hear that you have a second book coming in the future. So I will have to keep my eyes peeled for that. Where can people you know, right now, as I’m recording this pre order, but when when can we can they grab a copy of your book and learn more about yourself because I know you have, you know, be able to hire you possibly for their organization? Absolutely.

Ayo 

They can hire me. I’m on LinkedIn, my name is IO, oh, Dooney o w o d u n n i d is in David. And my first name is IO. My website is io.com ayowo.com. Through those two, you can get connected directly to me and the book is available on Amazon. So you can type my name in or type in inclusive leadership, the immigrant view, it should pop up.

Jessica 

Perfect. Well, thank you so much i o for taking the time to be on my show and to share so much wisdom like this has been such a great episode. I appreciate you and I excited to have you on again in the future when book number two is out.