[Ep. 407] A Guide to Building an Abundant Life with Holly Trantham

Hello, loo-loo, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast.

This is your host, Jessica moorhouse, and in today’s episode, we’re going to talk about what it means to go beyond just getting by with author and creative director of the Financial Diet, Holly Trantham, where she has been talking about money on and offline since 2016.

Now, I don’t know about you, but I personally have been a long-time fan of the Financial Diet for years and years and years, and you might also be because honestly, they have a very huge fan base on their YouTube, their podcast, their social media, and you may remember in 2018, co-founders Chelsea and Lauren published their first book, The Financial Diet, A Total Beginner’s Guide to Getting Good with Money, which is a great book for anyone looking for a guide on how to fix their finances, get out of debt, and ultimately build that solid financial foundation.

But what happens after that?

What happens once you’ve read all the books, done all the work, and you fixed your finances, you got everything really nice and organized, you’re on a good path, what do you do next?

Well, that is where this book comes in by Holly, Beyond Getting By, The Financial Diet’s Guide to Abundant and Intentional Living.

This book shows you what to do next, which really means you need to define what are your values?

What makes you happy?

What kind of life do you want to design for yourself that will give you fulfillment?

And then how do you use money to do all of those things?

because you don’t have to do something extreme to be happy.

Sometimes the simplest path is the best one.

And that’s often overlooked in lots of books online because it’s not sexy or interesting, but sometimes doing something really simple and having hobbies and just getting really clear on what do you want?

What do you want out of life?

I think often we’re just too busy following someone else’s path or we’re just too busy to really give ourselves that moment to say, yeah, what do I want?

I haven’t thought about that in a while.

And likely it’s because it’s changed in the past two, five, 10 years, 20 years, whatever it is.

So we’re going to dive deep into all those exciting topics.

I’m also giving away a copy of Holly’s book along with all the books that are going to be featured on this season of the show.

So make sure to listen to the end of the episode for more information on how to enter to win.

But we’ve got a lot of great stuff in this episode.

So without further ado, let’s get to that interview with Holly.

Welcome, Holly, to the More Money Podcast.

So happy to have you on the show to talk about your book, Beyond Getting By, The Financial Diet’s Guide to Abundant and Intentional Living.

Welcome.

Thank you so much for having me.

I’m so honored to be here.

So like I mentioned before, I hit the record button.

This is a hefty book, like physically heavy, and that’s because not only is there like some really great info in it, but they do a really great job.

And it’s also in full color, y’all.

This is like, you know, some books you’re paying the same price and you’re not getting this kind of quality.

But there’s a lot of great worksheets.

So you mentioned the reason you wanted it to be kind of that thickness or, you know, kind of heaviness is so it’s very easy to actually use it as that journal if you want to fill out those worksheets inside the book, which is true.

If you get like a paperback book and there’s lots of exercises, you’re like, it’s floppy, can’t do it.

So this is really, I think, a book that you want to read and then immediately do the exercise so that information is in your head.

So lots of really great stuff.

I want to go start right at the beginning of the book because this is what I’m like, oh, yeah, this is such a me book.

I mean, I love The Financial Diet anyway, but I loved how we kind of kickstarted the book by talking about the death of the girl boss, which I’m like, oh, thank God, because I’ve never really been a fan of, I mean, at the time, I guess, when it first kind of came into being the girl, the idea of girl boss, you’re like, oh, great.

We’re promoting the idea that women can be successful, we can be at the top of the career track, we can be entrepreneurs, great.

But I’m like, I don’t like the word girl, because I am not a girl.

I am a woman.

And for me, one thing that I’ve always struggled with, especially in the world of finance, which is very male dominated, is not, I don’t want to be looked at as a girl.

Can you just look at me as a financial expert, someone equal up here?

So I love the foreword about the death of the girl boss and how it is kind of holding us back or there’s lots of great examples that you shared that was, when we think about those kind of typical girl bosses, a lot of them have kind of fallen from grace and they’ve got, they’re kind of like hurting us a little bit.

Do you want to kind of speak a little bit to why you wanted to kind of start the book talking about that topic and why we need to kind of do away with this idea so we can, as women especially, move forward?

Yeah.

So that foreword is actually written by Chelsea Fagan, our CEO and founder, a co-founder.

And that’s a topic that we are constantly dissecting here at TFD on our YouTube channel, on various podcasts, in our newsletter, and in this book.

So it was just kind of, I feel like that theme of rejecting the idea that we want to emulate what men have done to get to the top of their professions.

I feel like the idea of rejecting that is woven throughout the book.

I think it’s just like completely core to what the book was about.

That building a life that you want and moving beyond getting by is simply about figuring out what’s actually important to you, how you really want to spend your time, which is the most important part of money, I think.

And just rejecting the idea that you have to browbeat your way to the top of a corporate ladder in order to do that, or that you have to be a CEO, you have to be super successful in external terms.

And yeah, it was like a very natural start to the book.

And later on in the book, I talk about when I was writing, and it was pretty soon after, maybe a year after, but it was still pretty top of mind.

That video of Kim Kardashian came out where she was like, no one wants to effing work these days.

But then other people came out and were like, well, you don’t actually pay your employees very well.

So maybe those two things go hand in hand.

So the idea of the girl boss, I totally agree with you.

It’s very infantilizing as a term, but yeah, just the idea that corporate and corporate America success is the only way to live an impressive life is just like incorrect.

And maybe if we all were striving to act in ways that are more aligned with our own values and in ways that are more respectful of other people and recognize that literally no one who’s gotten to the top has done it without the help of other people.

I think that that’s what we’re rejecting when we reject the idea of the girl boss.

Yeah, and I think that’s a really important message because that is not the message that we often see, whether it’s in the news, those are the people that are being highlighted for being successful, and especially successful women are usually, yeah, the Kim Kardashian, oh, the self-made millionaires and stuff like that.

And then when you like look under the hood, you’re like, well, they came from, they had privilege, they came from money, they had a bunch of people helping them, all these kinds of things, or they got lucky, they went viral, I don’t know.

And there’s all these other people, it’s like those people are doing the exact same thing, working just as hard, didn’t get the same result, doesn’t mean that they’re really less successful in a certain way.

It doesn’t mean that they’re bad, or they’re doing something wrong.

It’s just like sometimes it’s just the roll of the dice, that’s just a circumstance.

And I think that’s a really important point to really kind of focus on and really, yes, that’s the tone for the entire book is really getting clear on, what does financial success mean?

And often what we’re presented in the news, especially online on social media, it is how much money do you have by what age?

You should have a lot of money by young age, otherwise you’re a failure and you’re like, well, I mean, there’s a lot of things I’m dealing with right now, student loans and all that kind of stuff.

Or it’s just have the big house, the nice car, the material goods, and that’s what’s going on.

And even for someone like me, I still sometimes can’t help but look at this stuff and look internal and like, gosh, am I not actually, am I doing not so good?

Should I be working harder?

Should I do that?

And then I kind of think back and it’s very timely that I read this book because it was very in line with lots of the things that I’ve been going through in my life and some of the topics that I explored in my own book doing kind of a self journey as it were of realizing that, oh yeah, if I had more money, I don’t necessarily think it would fix some of the things that I actually needed to get fixed in my own life.

I don’t think I’d be happier.

I don’t think it would make my life fuller.

Yeah, but again, that’s the message that we’re being pushed.

It’s like more money is the solution to all of your problems.

Not necessarily, though.

I do think to a point, and I get to speak about this in the book, I do think that money does make a lot of things easier, but I totally agree with you.

There is a point of diminishing returns.

For everybody, it’s different, but I think you have to figure out what that is for yourself, because otherwise, endless chasing of wealth is just, I don’t think it makes people happy.

Saying that at the same time, it’s a very privileged position to be.

Once you get to yourself to the point where you’re like, actually, I can decide to not make more money, I think that is the goal.

To get to a point where you can make that decision and you can realize for yourself, like you were saying, I don’t need anymore to be fulfilled.

Yeah, and you mentioned in this book that, that’s kind of what the first book that came out a few years ago, The Financial Diet, that’s what that book was about.

It’s like, let’s make sure we’re setting that foundation, we’re making sure that you are getting by, you are paying your bills, we’re doing the things that you need fixed.

You’re paying down your debt, got that emergency fund, we’ve got all this.

This is what you need to do.

This book is like, okay, you’ve done all that stuff, here’s what’s next.

And I think that’s often what’s missing from a lot of personal finance books.

Not that they’re bad, is they focus on that first step of you came to this book because you, need to fix your finances, you don’t know where to go, you’re in debt, you have no cash in the bank.

Here are the solutions.

But then once you reach that point, and again, that’s a really hard point to get to when you’re like, I’m debt free or I’m on the debt free track, got my emergency fund, I feel secure in my job, I feel good about my day to day, I’m not living paycheck to paycheck, all that stuff.

There’s not too many books that really go, okay, let’s talk about what’s next.

Usually what’s next is I think that’s where people go down those rabbit holes is online or on Reddit or whatever.

It’s like, now let’s talk about fire, something extreme.

You’re like, oh, okay, should I just eat cans of soup until I can’t handle it anymore so I can become a millionaire by 30 and then retire and then enjoy my life.

I always find it’s like the next step is usually something extreme.

I’m like, it doesn’t necessarily have to be extreme.

Sometimes it could be, here’s the next steps.

And it’s really about outlining, what makes you happy?

What are your values?

What do you want out of life?

because now you’re finally in a financial position where you can sit back, take that time, and explore that.

And I think, and you talk about this in the book too, how we kind of glamorize busyness.

And I think that is also another path I see people, once they’ve got their finances in order, then they just like, oh, well, I should be doing more and more and more, working harder, trying to find that better job, which ultimately could potentially lead to burnout, which I think a lot of us have experienced.

So yeah, I kind of want to talk a little bit.

I mean, there’s so many great topics in the book that I want to explore, but I really like the idea or the topic about finding your happiness and really finding that connection with money.

because I know there was that old saying, money can’t buy happiness.

And we were like, yes, it can.

No, it can’t.

We know money can help up to a certain point.

After a certain point, there’s lots of data that shows us it can’t make you, like if you’re already unhappy, it’s not going to make you happier.

Do you want to kind of talk a little bit about why that was really important to explore in the book and how we need to maybe get rid of this idea of a happiness threshold?

We need to find that for ourselves.

So the happiness threshold is this idea that there’s a certain amount of money after which once you earn more, you’re going to be diminishing returns that you’re happy, you’re just not going to be any happier.

And again, I think that’s true, but it’s personal, there’s a really famous study.

Even the author who I believe has since past has said, obviously this is a generalization, it’s not actually true for everybody, but there was a really famous study a few years ago that said that was $75,000.

I don’t know about where you live in New York City.

Yeah, $75,000 is not going to make you feel really wealthy in Toronto.

No, it’s definitely not.

But I do remember a time in my life where I would have been, like the idea of making that much money would have been like so much.

I think that one of the things that I found when researching the book and when you speak to psychologists and stuff is the values-based spending and spending of your time is the most important thing for happiness, being in charge of your time, having autonomy, and like doing things that you love.

And it is pretty clear when you look at time use studies and other surveys out there.

Wealthy people tend to spend a lot more time alone and they tend to outsource a lot of things in their life and they basically, and they just are a little bit more isolated and they don’t spend as much time with family.

And they spend, generally speaking, you spend a lot more time around people of your own social class, so they’re also in these isolated bubbles of other rich people.

And I think that that just becomes an echo chamber of convenience, right?

So why would you ever spend your time doing something if you could just pay somebody else to do it?

And then you end up just outsourcing everything in your life and not having any responsibilities.

And to a lot of people, that sounds great, right?

Especially if you grow up having so many responsibilities and so many things that you have to take care of.

obviously, that does sound wonderful.

But like I said, it’s different for everybody.

But I think generally speaking, living in such an isolated way is not going to make people happier.

This wasn’t in the book, but I’ve read a lot about the loss of third spaces in our lives.

And I think that things like that, people aren’t going to organize religion so much anymore, but they’re also not frequenting community spaces anymore.

They’re not being as active members of their community.

And the wealthier you get, the less you feel like you have to be an active member of your community.

And I think that, and that really shows, even just living in New York City and knowing about the differences that the schools get in the wealthier neighborhoods versus the working class neighborhoods.

The working class neighborhoods tend to see parental involvement about all of the kids’ wellness, and then the wealthier neighborhoods are much more competitive.

Those schools are extremely, you know, individualistic and the parents are only looking out for their kids.

And I just think that looking out for each other is probably a bigger component to happiness than we realize.

That’s something I wrote a lot about in the book, Community and Relationships.

And I do think that money tends to, if you’re not careful, can tend to make people less involved with their communities and like less, less invested in their relationships really.

Yeah.

And I know there’s, there’s a few books that kind of come to mind that, that speak to the idea of just outsource everything.

You shouldn’t be doing your own laundry.

If you could afford, pay someone to do it.

And the other day I was, I mean, I actually take pride and I actually enjoy, once you kind of get over the idea of like a little housework, there’s definitely a way you can reframe it in your mind to be like, this is actually something I get to do.

I really like to do it.

I feel more connected to my house by cleaning it.

Like I feel, you know, cause it’s like, I am paying this mortgage.

When I clean it, I feel like more connected to it in a weird way.

But also it allows me when I’m just so busy and I’m always doing this, this, oh, there’s emails, this and that, when I’m like cleaning my bathroom, I’m for that moment in time in a flow state and I’m not thinking about anything else.

And it’s free, you know?

I do that when I work out, I’m just thinking about doing the work out, I’m surviving doing all these weights and stuff like that.

When I’m doing housework like that or cooking a meal, I’m in this flow state of let’s follow the recipe and do that.

And it’s actually really enjoyable.

But like you said, the message we’re often getting is don’t waste your time on that.

You should get someone else to do that.

That’s lower level stuff.

You should be focusing all your energy on something higher level.

And you’re like, why?

Is it going to make you happy or is it actually better?

And like you said, if you get to a certain level of wealth, you do kind of become isolated.

That’s actually kind of one of my fears or maybe not fear, but worry is like, let’s say I won the lottery or something I did, instant millionaire or something like that.

One thing I’d worry about is like, how would my friends react?

because we’re all kind of on the same income level.

So we all have that in common and it makes you feel like you’re kind of part of the same group.

If I skyrocketed in terms of my net worth, would that kind of isolate me?

Like, would that change the dynamic?

I don’t want to get new friends just because I have more money.

And I don’t necessarily want the friends who have a lot of money.

because I’m like, well, I didn’t come for money.

I like the people I grew up with or the people that I have in my life.

But yeah, it’s just one of those things I think about.

And I’ve watched lots of TV shows and documentaries.

And you’re like, lots of these people, especially the ones who grew up with wealth, they are lonely.

And I’m like, I’d rather not.

I’d rather have less money and feel more connected to my peers and my community.

And that’s something that gets lost for sure.

Yeah, I think that there is this trend you see as people becoming wealthier.

They become more conservative.

And the idea is like, oh, if you got more money, you’d be conservative too.

because, you know, getting more money means you’re more protective of that money.

And I, I, I don’t, I’ve never really understood that if you have ever, like, I came from a pretty privileged background, definitely very middle to upper middle class.

I certainly, you know, it’s very easy to look around New York City and see plenty of people who are much more privileged than me.

But like, I certainly like we had everything we needed and went on some family vacations.

And, you know, had two cars and stuff like that.

I didn’t have to pay for college, which is really big.

So it’s easy to take all of that for granted.

But then when you go out in the real world and you meet people and like even like people I went to high school with didn’t have the things that I had.

I just don’t understand how people can can get wealthier, know what they struggled with when they didn’t have money and not think that that the system is rigged.

Yeah.

And also just I guess when you get to that point, it is easier to adopt a mindset of I need to protect this money because I didn’t have it and I don’t want to go away and I don’t want to go backwards.

I want to go forward.

I want to maintain this.

And so because of that mindset, it’s unlikely that you are going to use some of those resources you now have to be more involved in your community or help your community because, well, if I give all this money away or if I give out these resources that I took all this time and work to accumulate, well, then I’m going to be back to square one.

And it’s like, that’s again, what an isolating kind of way of living is just like, I need to hoard this money because I can’t go back.

But it’s like, well, we’re only on this, like, I’ve just been thinking about this a lot lately.

We’re only on this planet for so long.

Why wouldn’t you want to, now you have these resources, wouldn’t you want to do something that you know will really help somebody with it?

I mean, again, it depends on like what kind of level.

I was just watching, there’s a new documentary series with Bill Gates, and obviously he’s super wealthy.

And there is an episode that’s really interesting about privilege and wealth and how, you know, the conversation about should millionaires just not exist.

And I’m of the, I don’t think they should exist.

Having $1,000 million is so much money that you don’t need $2,000 million, you know, like that’s, why does anyone need that amount of wealth?

because that is a lot of power and the amount of things that you could do with that kind of money.

I know we’re kind of getting off track here, but that’s just something that I don’t like.

Okay, that’s a whole other conversation.

But going back to the idea of just being, you know, like you talk about in the book often, intentional with your money.

When you’re at that point where you can be, we need to really be clear on what those values and intentions are with our money, because every influencer, every company that does advertising, they’re gonna try to tell you what you should be intentional with your money.

They’re gonna tell you how you should spend your money.

So with that, how, when it seems like from every angle, someone is telling, no, spend your money here, spend your money here, how can you stay focused on what means, what’s most important to you, how you want to use your money.

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Yeah.

I mean, I feel like I still am constantly figuring that out.

Yeah, I know.

It’s a practice for sure.

And you know what I say?

I say that in the book that this whole concept of being intentional with your money and living, having a real abundance mindset is a practice.

It’s not like something you’re just going to do once and be figured out forever because there’s always going to be, we’re always going to have, no matter how much work we do on ourselves, we’re always going to have insecurities and vulnerabilities and things that hit us in a certain spot.

I think we have to spend money on them.

For me, the tools are really just honestly budgeting and prioritizing.

What I have done the work to do, to know, I’ve done the work to know actually makes me happy.

I’ve been on kind of a low by year because I was saving money for this climbing trip I wanted to go on.

It was just me, so I didn’t want to come out of my vacation spending that my husband and I shared, even though I think he wouldn’t have cared.

But for my own challenge, I wanted it to be from my personal spending.

For the first six months of the year, I was spending very, very little.

And I had started keeping a list of items or classes or things that I wanted to spend money on that I didn’t have the budget for at the time.

And I’ve slowly been chipping away at it, like getting things that I really definitely wanted, like new workout clothes and stuff like that.

I’m wearing a pair of shoes that I had on the list of that I was really excited about.

And I don’t know, making yourself wait a little bit, delaying gratification, I think is really important.

It makes you appreciate your things more.

I think being really intentional about cleanouts and regularly assessing your stuff and trying to make the most of what you have rather than acquiring new things is really important and valuable.

I think if you’re at a place where you don’t need anything else, there’s nothing else you need to buy.

I’m not talking about people who are going without and struggling financially.

I’m talking about if you know that you don’t actually need any more clothes, you don’t need to buy anything else.

I think that a low spend challenge is a really good way to clarify what you actually want and like I said, keeping that list and everything.

I haven’t started tallying it yet, but I’m going to, at the end of the year probably for our newsletter, maybe a member’s thing, tally up what I bought this year versus what I bought last year like a normal year.

because I haven’t been keeping track as I’ve gone, but everything goes on the same credit card, so I have an easy way to find it and I’m really curious to see what the difference is.

because I think having that self-imposed limit, because I was specifically saving for something I knew I really wanted to do, that was kind of expensive.

I went without a lot of things and I’ve been fine.

Yeah, you didn’t feel deprived.

No.

This is obviously after I wrote the book, because I wrote that year before it came out, but that’s definitely something that I talked a lot about in the book, again, clarifying your values, going through, making the use of the things you actually have, not resorting to the cheapest option ever.

I think that that really gets us, it’s like sale culture and drop culture and things like that.

There’s all this marketing out there that makes it seem like you are going to miss out if you don’t take advantage of it right now.

I think that’s so true of concerts now.

I think Taylor Swift has, I mean this was true even before the Ares Tour, but now that has totally set a precedent of these can’t miss events.

I think it’s not healthy in a lot of ways.

Not that people can’t go enjoy the concerts that they want to and things like that.

But I’m talking about not just concerts, festivals, travel destinations, there’s all this stuff that’s marketed to us from different angles as like you have to do this or your life won’t be complete.

And it’s just like, I just don’t think that’s true of literally anything.

I think that we can be the arbiters of what is gonna make our lives complete and how we’re gonna spend our money.

Yeah, there’s not many things that I think I can think of that.

I’m so glad I did that.

Otherwise my life today would be worse.

Like I think of like marrying my husband.

Yeah, I’m happy with that event.

That was great.

But like a concert, I’m like, yeah, that was great.

I don’t think it would have changed the course of my life if I did not buy tickets and go.

Not to say it can’t bring you joy and all these other things.

But yeah, I even kind of bought into the hype.

I guess it was about a year ago when she announced, oh, we’re doing some tour dates in Toronto because she hadn’t done any dates in Canada.

I’m like, should I?

Everyone online was talking about it.

I’m like, should I get tickets?

And I’m like, I’m not even like the biggest.

I actually like her music.

I’ve been listening to her and I’m like, oh, this is cool.

But I hadn’t listened to her in years.

But I’m like, why do I want to buy tickets?

I’m like, I’m not a mega fan, but I was so close to like, here’s my credit card.

And then I’m like, wait, how much are tickets?

No, there’s also something in me.

I’m like, nah, there’s a cheap skating.

I’m like, I’m not paying that.

I would have if it was easier to get tickets and it was cheaper, I would totally would have gone.

Sure.

Yeah, it was super sure.

But like, I remember saying to my two of my friends when that tickets were first announced, we were like, oh, well, we should like that be fun to go.

I’ll go to like, how much do you think?

How much do you spend?

How much do we want to spend on these?

Like once they go up, like how much are we willing?

We were all like, oh, like 200 bucks.

Like I would spend that really quickly.

Like, oh, that was like, it’s 2000.

Sorry.

We’re like, oh, yeah.

Well, and like the the Internet line, like I just.

Oh, yeah.

You’re never going to get tickets anyway.

I think that.

But I think this culture around like, like these like like events that like you have to like be a part of the moment like that.

I just think it’s like, I just think it creates unhealthy expectations and just encourages a lot more spend like spending.

Yeah.

Especially probably spending outside of your budget, because you know, there’s so many people I’m sure that we’re also planning a trip and we’re saving for months and then, oh, tickets are on sale.

Well, maybe I’ll delay that trip and spend that money, you know, in the way that now this concert wants me to.

And we also culturally, we’re always like, I’ve spent on experiences, not things.

And I totally get where that comes from.

But I do think it’s possible to overconsume experiences too.

Like if you’re if you’re constantly going to every single concert, like and like and trying to like go on like every single trip you can take and like do like load up on all this stuff, just to like say you did it, like, are you really?

Are you really truly enjoying and savoring all of those experiences individually?

Or are you just racking up a checklist of things that you said you did?

And I mean, ever again, everybody’s different, you have to figure that out for yourself.

But like, for me, I’m just like, like I don’t spend very much money on concerts because I just like, no, there’s so few.

I’m like really going to like, be so glad I stayed out past 10 p.m.

for.

Oh, I know.

I agree.

You said a really, I think, key word there that, and there’s some research about that, the word savor.

And that is just something that especially our generation, I think younger generations don’t do anymore.

And that is because we literally can do anything at any time with a click of a button.

We don’t have to savor anything.

We can get instant gratification.

And like you mentioned, the anticipation, the waiting, the delayed gratification, there’s so much to add to the show.

This will actually make you happier if you have to wait.

If you get something immediately, the happiness dissipates really quickly.

If you have to wait six months to go on that trip, and I still think, I mean, my husband went to Mexico in January.

We hadn’t been on a trip for years because COVID kind of threw a wrench in all those plans.

And so we’d been waiting years to go anywhere outside of the country.

And I bought that package to go to Mexico just for five nights, I think, in the spring.

And so we had to wait about six months to go.

And I was telling him, I think about going on that trip whenever I just have a spare moment.

And it’s so exciting.

It’s like, oh, the countdown’s on.

We’re almost there.

And so I got to kind of extend the excitement, the happiness of that trip well beyond the trip itself.

And it’s always the before.

There’s some research to show the before and after a trip is usually the best part of the trip.

Yeah, there is research out there that planning a trip makes you just as happy as being on a vacation.

And that could be planning to go to a concert, too, that’s into the future.

And you’re like, oh, or whatever the case.

But yeah, I think that’s a really key component of defining your happiness, being more intentional with your money.

Is sometimes less is more.

And that planning is actually kind of part of it.

So we need to kind of, I think, get back to that.

One thing I also want to talk about, because I thought this is a really important key thing, and I think we’re very in line.

Well, that’s why I like the Financial Diet.

You do a lot of content about the topic of shame and money.

We see a lot of this.

We’ve seen a lot of this when I was, I’ve talked about this on the podcast many times, when I was entering the personal finance kind of blogosphere, all the big names out there use shame as their main tactic to try to encourage certain behaviors.

And it got me for a while, and I’m still undoing some of that kind of things.

Oh, you shouldn’t be spending your money that way, da, da, da, da, da.

And we need to really not use this shame-based approach because it does not work long-term.

Do you want to kind of explore that a little bit more in how we need to use shame?

Like, because there’s good shame, there’s bad shame.

Most of the shame that we see from the big voices is negative, but you can use shame as a positive.

If there’s a book I just finished called Dopamine Nation that talks about pro-social shame in a way of using shame as a positive so it doesn’t feel like you are a terrible person, but it’s like, ooh, I want to change my behavior moving forward.

Yeah, for the book, I spoke to a financial therapist and social worker named Lindsay Bryan Podman, and she was really wonderful.

We’ve worked with her before on TFD workshops and stuff too, and she did a really great exercise that made it into the book to help you reframe your shameful thoughts around money.

So instead of like, and she talked about how shame can backfire, because if you tell yourself you’re going to not spend any money on dining out this week and then you go out to happy hour with coworkers, and then you are approaching it from a place of shame, you’re like, I didn’t stick to my plan.

Then I’m worthless, I might as well not bother trying to save any money.

Whereas if you approach it from a place of self-love and empathy and say, wow, I did such a good job making it through almost all of this week, not spending money on dining out, which is one of my biggest issue areas, I deserve to go out to happy hour.

I’m so glad I got to have a good time with my friends.

That is a lot more motivating on the way, is to not be so restrictive.

Shame comes from a place of restriction.

I talked about Dave Ramsey in the book.

We have talked about him a lot on the channel.

I think that the culture around him and the personal finance, he is very influential in the personal finance.

You can’t ignore that.

Some of his steps have been very helpful for people.

But he says things like, if you’re paying off debt, the only time you should be inside a restaurant is if you’re working at it.

You’re like, ooh.

It’s like, oh, so you’re not supposed to have any fun.

You’re not supposed to have any enjoyment.

You can never go to a restaurant if you are in debt.

That’s a bit much.

Yeah.

I go into this in the book a little more.

I do think a lot of that comes from very American, puritanical values, but I don’t need to get into that now.

But I do think that thinking in such finite terms of like, I cannot do anything until I’m good with money is just like, you literally don’t know if you’re going to get hit by a bus tomorrow.

I think that a lot of people use that reasoning as an excuse to not try to be good with money at all, which I don’t think is helpful.

But I do think that we all have to kind of strike a balance because you do deserve to take care of your future self.

You do deserve to save and invest in retirement and all of that.

But you can’t do it all at the expense of having any kind of enjoyment in your life.

That’s just, then what’s the point, to me?

Yeah.

And it’s just not healthy.

And I definitely lived like that in my early mid-20s, because again, that was a lot of the content out there that was very much like black and white.

This is what you have to do.

If you don’t do this, then you’re a failure or you’re going to regret it, etc.

I’m like, oh, okay, well, I’ll do that.

Yeah.

And yeah, then I mean, there’s consequences to living so restrictive.

Once you pay off your debt, then you don’t know what to do after that, because all you’ve learned is how to live in a very restrictive way.

And there’s lots of data to show that lots of those people get back into debt because they only know how to live in that world of paying off debt.

Instead of how to save money, how to build wealth, how to invest, that’s something that’s not really covered.

And so I think it’s really important for people to come from a place of, it’s not about being perfect, it’s about being better.

And give yourself a pat on the back for what you did do.

Don’t focus on what you didn’t.

And you can do a little bit better next month if you want, but just look at the progress, especially with like the debt specifically.

There’s a whole community online, which I think is great because it can be very isolating to be in debt and paying it off.

And so finding a community, oh, people are doing it as well.

But when you set those timelines, I’m going to be debt free by this time.

And something happens, you lose your job, an expense happens, your car needs to be replaced, whatever, it will kind of throw off your plans.

And that is dangerous when you still stick with those restrictions of, well, then, you know, what’s the point of doing it at all?

Everything doesn’t, this doesn’t work.

So I’m not even going to try.

It’s like, no, no, no, just look at the progress you did make before that.

If that means your debt free day is going to be pushed into the future, that’s OK, because it still means you’re going to get to that point.

But again, lots of the messaging out there is is it doesn’t allow for flexibility.

I think, yeah, I think that that flexibility and planning for financial flexibility is like the most important thing for people to learn.

Like we still go out of our way to frame when we talk about money wins, you know, if you had an emergency and you had to dip into your emergency fund to cover it, that is a win because you had that you had that in place in order to take care of it.

Like you then that is like exactly what it’s used for.

And people, I think, get really hard on themselves when they have to when they have to use money.

They’ve worked really hard to save.

But it’s like, no, you actually you did what you you did, what you were meant to do.

You did what it was, you spent it on what it was meant for.

And that is a good thing.

I like I started thinking about like long term saving and investing is like sleeping because we all we actually can’t undervalue our sleep.

There’s all these studies on how on, you know, comorbidities and everything that that lack of sleep leads to.

You you need your seven to nine hours of sleep.

It’s also bad if you’re sleeping too much.

You don’t want to be.

Yeah, that that also has negative health effects.

So I think it’s like finding that middle ground and like doing what you need to be doing and finding your threshold.

Yeah, and that kind of leads me to, you know, one overarching kind of theme of the book is the idea of finding your enoughness, if you will, enough money, enough happiness.

And you write in the book that there is a big difference that isn’t often talked about about the difference between abundance and excess.

And I think a lot of us want to even me, I can’t help but think the first kind of thing I think about when I think of abundance is a lot, a lot more than I probably can ever consume.

You know, like the Aladdin where it’s like, oh, you get to this, you know, Erin, there’s all this gold and there’s just so much and stuff like that.

Why do we need to focus more on this idea of abundance, which is very different than excess and not get stuck in this idea of more is more is more is better?

Yeah, I mean, I think we live in an era of fake abundance.

We have all of these restock videos that are like constantly making or somehow making the way to onto my feet.

I don’t know about you, but they haunt me.

And it’s just like I know a lot of it’s rage bait too, but it’s just like no one needs a fridge of individually packaged, pre-made protein shakes and seltzers, and every single beverage known to man that keeps you, like no one needs all of that.

And a closet full of like the Cartnia-Cardassian closet situation with the home people.

I just like, they do good work making these look pretty, but oh my gosh, all of those closets are just like, just like, let’s show up how much stuff we have.

Yeah, why do you need a whole room with stuff that you’re never going to touch?

Yeah, I think we think of abundance as having a lot, but abundance is really the idea that there is enough.

There is enough to go around.

Like I will, I will always be able to get what I need.

That is, that is what abundance and abundance mindset is to me.

Excess is just having so much stuff that you like, you like show off.

Here’s, here’s all this stuff I have.

I think of, this really gets to me when I think of my home because, you know, I really, there’s a lot of things that we have to sacrifice to live in a city where, you know, it’s expensive and, you know, cost per square feet is like laughable.

And I, we still rent, and I probably will for many more years.

But I, it’s really easy to look at like family members who live in Eastern North Carolina and have moorhouse than, well, than I would ever know what to do.

Somehow they’re already outgrowing it, right?

Right.

And it’s just like, I just look at it and it’s just like, I also see, you know, my sister-in-law’s dad just bought a home that people who retired moved into retirement home and they just sold it fully furnished with all of their art on the wall.

They just were like, we’re done with this.

We’re getting rid of it.

We don’t really want to deal with all this stuff.

And I just like don’t want to, I think that the idea of abundance can get us into trouble if we just like, if we actually are just thinking of it as accumulating more and more stuff because, you know, that we’re all gonna have to deal with that stuff eventually.

And I think I wouldn’t trade, I was about to say about living in the city, I wouldn’t trade our small apartment in a small, I actually have, we have a pretty good size apartment for New York City, pretty great size apartment for New York City, actually, but it’s much smaller than a suburban home would, a general suburban home would be.

But we get, you know, I think a much more abundant life, we can walk out the door and go to several different really amazing coffee shops and bakeries.

We can, you know, we walk to our climbing gym, we walk to see friends, we have short subway rides to some of the most amazing museums in the world.

We get to see, you know, we’re big theater people, we get to take advantage of all of that.

And it’s just like, I’m so lucky to have this life I have.

It wouldn’t be worth it to just have more space for more stuff to me.

And so many people get in their heads about, you know, cost of living and getting more for less money and like having so much more space.

And, you know, again, it comes down to personal values, right?

Like I, I understand some people really would not enjoy city life at all.

I totally get that.

But for me, I like that trade off is like not even close to being worth it.

So I, I just, I think that, yeah, I feel like my life is very abundant because of everything I have around me and all the opportunities I have around me, even though I, it necessitates I have less stuff.

And I think that we think of abundance in terms of things we personally own and that’s just, that’s just not true.

Yeah.

And just the, I guess the opposite of scarcity too.

It’s like, well, especially if you’ve been living in this situation of scarcity for a long time, lots of us have probably experienced that, especially, you know, as we maybe finish university or finish high school and then we’re thrust into the real world.

A lot of scarcity during those, that first decade of like your 20s for sure.

And so we are striving to get the, I want to move past that.

And so then we kind of overcorrect.

And we think what we’re striving for is abundance, but it’s probably excess.

And it’s like, we need to find the balance in the middle because a lot of people I have talked to that did overcorrect and then bought a lot of stuff.

They’re just like, I don’t know what I’m doing with this stuff, right?

I’ve never used that or, you know, it doesn’t actually make them happy.

They thought the opposite of what they were lacking would make them happy.

And it ultimately didn’t.

So, yeah, I think that’s a really important thing.

One other thing I kind of want to touch on kind of around this, you know, is we hear a lot of scarcity and abundance mindset all the time.

The other thing we hear often and sometimes I use the term probably incorrectly because I think it’s just kind of laughable how so many people use the term of manifestation and manifest it.

And you’re like, that just means wishing really hard.

It seems like so, you know, it’s like, if I just visualize it, it’s going to happen.

I’m like, well, I mean, I’ve never had any opportunity to knock on my door just by wanting it really bad.

That’s that’s one thing I learned real fast.

That just doesn’t work for me.

And you in the book talk about manifestation versus facilitation.

I think that doesn’t that’s another word.

I’m like, we need to use that word more often than manifestation.

Sure, visualization that has, there’s a lot of benefits.

I love a vision board.

Those are great to organize your goals, your thoughts.

But the other part of it is, how are we going to facilitate this?

How are we going to get this?

And I think that’s what’s missing.

There’s whole books on manifesting that don’t talk about, but how do I actually get a million dollars?

You said I could be a millionaire.

You didn’t actually explain how I was going to get there.

There was a TikTok, I don’t know if you saw it recently, going around that it was one of those man on the street interviews in New York.

And this woman was talking about her budding music career, and she was like, I’m really good at manifesting.

And then of course, all these commenters were like, she’s the daughter of a billionaire.

It’s easy to manifest if you just pay for things.

Yeah, if you just pay for the fame, the studio time, all that kind of stuff.

That, you know.

Yeah, I think that, yeah, the idea, I mean, I think some people who talk about manifesting, like there are people in my life who like, talk about manifesting things and like, and who are very good at making things happen for themselves.

But I’m like, it’s not because you said you were gonna do it.

It’s because you said you were gonna do it, and then you put the work in to do it.

Yeah.

And it’s just, so I think, you know, I totally agree with you.

Like so many people talk about these things, like if you want it badly enough, you’re gonna get it.

And it’s like, no, if you want it badly enough and it’s within the realm of possibility and you actually make a plan and stick to it and, you know, like are consistent in trying to reach this goal, then yeah, you have a good chance of making it happen, potentially.

There’s always things working against us.

But so yeah, I always take issue with the idea of manifestation.

And also mostly because all of that, like so much like of that advice, like the girl on the TikTok, like Gwyneth Paltrow, Rachel Hollis, like all of these, Tony Robbins even, like all so many, so much of that advice just comes from people who are already wealthy.

And it’s just, I just, we have to take all of that with a grain of salt, so.

Yeah, I think one thing I-

It’s easy to manifest when you’re rich.

Yeah, exactly.

And one thing I talked about in the book was like, I think we could all take a lesson in confidence from them because they are confident because they have money.

They’re confident in their manifestation because they just, you know, if they fail, it’s not a big deal.

And I think we could all do a little bit with a good dose of that kind of confidence.

I’m also, hilariously for someone who’s very type A and, you know, talks about money for a living.

I also really have gone into astrology and I love-

I love that.

I just, it’s just, just for fun.

But I love Channy Nichols.

She’s got, she had, there was a big eclipse last week and there was, you know, she was talking about, I don’t know if it was in everyone’s, but it was in my reading.

There was something about during the eclipse in Pisces, make, you know, lean into your Pisces, like said, but you know, sensitivity and semi-delusion, and be set a goal, be delusional about the goal, but be pragmatic in your plans.

And I think that that is a really, I thought that was just like a really good, I don’t know, mantra for life, like be delusional about the goal, be practical in your plans for it.

And, you know, you can, like if you are realistic about what it’s going to take to get to something, and like you understand what you’re getting into, I think that’ll really clarify whether or not you actually want to manifest a goal.

Not just like, oh, I’d love to be, you know, a circus performer.

It’s like, do I actually have what it takes to get there?

Or maybe you just want to go to class, you know?

Yeah, exactly.

So I, yeah, I think that there’s a lot to learn from manifestation advice out there, as long as we’re willing to talk about the actual plans.

Yeah, because I like the component that it’s like dream big.

I love that.

We should all be dreaming big.

Yeah, totally.

But let’s also do the math and be like, so what does it take to get to that level?

And are you willing to do that or not?

And that’s okay if you’re not.

The last thing I kind of want to touch on, which is sort of related to you just sharing, oh, you’re getting into astrology.

And again, this isn’t talking, you know, this isn’t talking too much.

Not as money advice, please.

Not as money advice, no.

But just as something fun.

And that’s, this is something again, when you were looking at, when you got your kind of finances together and you’re looking for that next step, one thing that I’ve only honestly realized in the past couple of years is I was so focused on building my net worth and staying debt-free and accumulating assets and earning more money, etc., etc., etc.

I kind of forgot, I lost the plot, is a saying I like to say, because I’m like, I really lost, like, what am I doing this for again?

And yeah, we want community, we want to spend time with people.

But, you know, we kind of stopped having fun.

And, you know, hobbies are a really important part of life that we don’t give any value to anymore.

And for me, I’m like, oh, they are so valuable in my life, whether that’s like puzzling or just having a book club or whatever the case, going, you know, running, it’s so important to have something outside of productivity and money that you can use money to again, facilitate.

So I want to kind of end it talking about why, you know, creating your own happiness and picking hobbies that bring you joy is such an important element of Beyond Getting By.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that, so we talked to, for the book, I talked to Eve Rodsky who wrote a book called Find Your Unicorn Space.

And I think that her idea of the unicorn space is really valuable because in her research and stuff, she found that the biggest thing that we can do to not burn out is to actually have an interest in our own lives and have these spaces that are fulfilling both socially and emotionally and personally.

And I think that, yeah, we really tend to lose sight of what’s important when we’re like hustling all the time and trying to, you know, even just trying to make ends meet and stuff, it’s really hard to make time for yourself.

And I think especially as women who, you know, we’re having all these conversations about domestic labor and emotional labor too, and like dividing up, making a more equitable society.

And it’s like, who’s having those conversations?

It’s mostly women.

So we’re like aware of what we take on, and we’re talking about it a lot more.

But I do think that, you know, prioritizing our own time is much more important than we have even thought before.

So I think that, yeah, I just, I think, you know, we talked, I talked a lot about burnout in the book as well.

And I think that having these spaces that are just for you is super important.

And, you know, I think the, what I’ve learned is like the fun part about life is that can always change.

Like you can always have more, you can always get new interests even if you’re an adult.

Like we also think of getting to adulthood, like we’re kind of done.

And I just don’t, I just like, that’s so sad to me.

Like I, I just started, my husband and I started rock climbing in the last two years, and that’s become a huge part of my life.

And it’s led me to taking other, like doing other exercise things that I had never thought to do before.

Like, like aerial silks classes, like I’m doing that now, because it’s like very similar to climbing.

My husband started learning piano at, when in his early thirties, because he just like realized one day he always regretted that he never learned it as a kid.

And he’s always like, God, I wish I learned piano.

And then he was like, I could learn it.

Like, you know, I could still, there’s like literally nothing stopping me from learning it.

And I think that I don’t know, I think we’re all like both of us are a lot happier when we have those things that we’re working on.

I love those some puzzling.

I also puzzle.

I’m so good.

And I, I, and also I think it’s, I think financially it’s also really good because it’s, it’s a specific direction for your money to go to once you like realize you are actually invested in doing something.

Now, I think I have a pretty high level of internal motivation compared to a lot of people.

I think I’m pretty lucky that if I like, I’m pretty good at being consistent with hobbies and things if I set out to do them.

So I do think there are, you know, if you struggle with prioritizing your, your own time or even just like doing things like without anybody else holding you accountable to do them.

I do think we talk about accountability partners with money and stuff.

I do think that’s also a really good thing when it comes to even just like, if you want to paint more and like say you never make time for it, or you want to take it, start doing yoga or something.

And I think having, finding a way to stick to what you need to stick to, that works for you.

Like, like I said, like I have, I do think, well, I will say my husband would not climb as much if he didn’t have me putting it on the calendar for us.

So that’s definitely an accountability situation.

So I think, I think a lot of us have a lot of difficulty prioritizing our own time.

But then once you like, I don’t know, once you start realizing how important it is and how much happier it makes you, I think it’s easier.

Yeah.

And yeah, I think that’s like the, the really important thing to take away is you need to allow yourself to, like give yourself permission to do these hobbies because these are actually really important.

They’re not a nice to have or, oh, I wish I had time to do that.

Make time.

Let go of something else to make time for that.

That will honestly, I’ve never heard of someone who’s like, oh my gosh, my hobbies are bringing me less joy in my life.

No, it’s like they’re fun.

They’re meant to be fun and they’re meant to be, there’s no results you’re trying to get from it.

I mean, besides if you’re puzzling, it’s like, I want to complete the puzzle.

That’s the result I hope to get.

But otherwise it’s just about doing the thing and having a good time.

And we need to remind ourselves that yeah, life should be more fun.

It’s not just about the return on investment and stuff like that.

And we can kind of get lost in that if you’re again scrolling online and you get sucked into certain algorithms.

That’s all you see.

Life is broader than that.

We need to totally remember that.

Well there are so many great things and like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, lots of great exercises I think are like incredibly well laid out, just a really beautiful book, I must say very well designed.

Shout out to our co-founder Lauren Ver Hage who designed it and our illustrator Cindy Neo, she did a really beautiful job with the illustrations.

Really nice, really well organized and thought out and written books.

Really loved going through it, highly encouraged people to check it out.

Before I let you go, do you want to talk about what’s going on at TFD, Financial Diet?

because you guys have so much stuff going on at all times.

If they’re not as familiar, what should they know about TFD?

Absolutely.

I like to think we were the first women’s personal finance YouTube channel that rose to prominence.

I don’t know if that’s-

I can’t tell you any others.

We’re still very much on YouTube.

We do a monthly in-depth feature length video essay, and that comes out usually the last Tuesday of the month.

We’re recording this September 24th.

It’s coming out today.

obviously, that’s not.

Now people are listening.

Then other than that, we have a weekly newsletter that’s free.

Where you can find us on all social platforms.

Then we have a really robust members program right now.

There’s a couple different tiers, premium members though, get access to all these fun, special podcasts we’ve been doing.

Currently, we’re in the middle of airing one on Get More Girls on Money, which was a very-

Oh, my God, I love that.

Very fun project for me.

Definitely check that out on YouTube or Patreon.

We also have some very exciting other free YouTube content coming up soon.

Chelsea, our co-founders doing a series on, I don’t know if we’re settling on this as the final title for the series, but right now it’s called the 30-something Women’s Guide to Slaying, and it’s really going to be great.

It’s going to cover a lot of things from a personal’s perspective but also research-based perspective on things like living a little bit healthier, building a home you love, wealth building habits as you transition from your 20s to your 30s.

I think that’s going to be really great.

And definitely, the newsletter is really awesome, too, and that’s free every week.

So definitely check that out.

And you also do lots of in-person and online events, which are incredible.

I’ve watched some of them.

I’ve also, a few years back, did one that was about Canadian investing.

So there’s so many great ones that you guys do.

So I highly recommend staying in the loop and following TFD.

I mean, I’ve been following you for years and years and years.

So it’s just like whenever I see your content pop up, I’m like, oh, someone who thinks like me.

I’m like, oh, that’s exactly what I was thinking.

Yeah.

So thank you so much for coming on the show to talk about your book and all the great things that TFD puts out.

Some really, really good, thoughtful content.

So, yeah, thanks so much for for coming on the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

This is really great.

And it was great talking to you.

And that was the episode with Holly Trantham, creative director of The Financial Diet and author of Beyond Getting By, The Financial Diet’s Guide to Abundant and Intentional Living.

Make sure to check them out at thefinancialdiet.com.

You can also follow them on Instagram at The Financial Diet.

And pretty much it’s The Financial Diet for all of their social media.

I’m going to include everything, you know, their TikTok, their YouTube, all of the other resources that we kind of mentioned in this episode for you to check out, because honestly, they do put out a lot of content and got really great membership.

They do great events.

So I’m going to include all of that in the show notes for this episode.

And I will link to the show notes to make it really easy for you in the description of this episode, wherever you’re watching or listening.

If you ever want to find the show notes for an episode, just go to jessicamoorhouse.com/podcast, and you can search or go jessicamoorhouse.com/thenumber of that particular episode.

And if you never know what episode you listen to, because maybe it was a while ago, hit me up over DM on Instagram or email me Jessica at jessicamoorhouse.com.

I don’t mind those emails.

I will direct you to the episode that you’re looking for.

Always happy to help with that.

And like I mentioned, I am going to give away a copy of the book.

just go to jessicamoorhouse.com/contest.

And that’s where you can find this book and a bunch of other books that I’m going to be giving away throughout this season.

And yeah, enter to win.

There’s nothing to lose, everything to possibly gain.

Speaking of books, I announced recently on the podcast that my book, Everything But Money, The Hidden Barriers Between You and Financial Freedom, is coming out very soon and you can pre-order now.

It will be on shelves December 31st, 2024.

That’s right, New Year’s Eve.

Very exciting.

But don’t wait to buy it.

Buy it now.

Pre-order your copy by going to jessicamoorhouse.com/book.

I’ve got quick links for wherever you are in the world, the US, Canada, UK, australia, wherever.

This is where you can find those links to pre-order.

And if you pre-order, there’s also information on that page on how to provide me with your proof of purchase, because that will give you access to all these amazing freebies.

And I’m only giving to people who pre-order.

So once the pre-order window is done, no one else is getting access to these amazing freebies.

They’re including some worksheets, some audio, some video, a lot of extras that you do not want to miss.

So go to jessicamoorhouse.com/book to find out all the details about how to pre-order my book.

Now, another thing that I unfortunately did not have time to let you know about on the podcast because it was a very quick decision on my part, my bad.

But if you’re ever following me on Instagram or honestly, like I put on my Instagram, YouTube, my LinkedIn, my TikTok and my email newsletter list, which that’s kind of the place that you always want.

This is how you find out about all the things that I’m announcing.

just go to jessicamoorhouse.com/subscribe to make sure you’re on the list.

But I announced that I am doing first time ever and I’m really excited about it.

My first ever accountability group.

So it’s called Budgeting Together.

It is an accountability group that I honestly wanted to start, partly for myself, because I’m like, gosh, I need some accountability with my own budget.

I’ve just been doing it on my own for eight years.

And I kind of want to be part of a community so we can all get together online, do our budgets, have that moment once a month where we get it done and just keep ourselves accountable with each other talking about this is what I want to accomplish this month.

These are my intentions.

These are the things that I want to achieve.

These are my goals.

And these are some things that I want to improve on.

And then hopefully we can all do better with our money.

So I’m currently running the first cohort.

So I had a very short window for that.

That again, if you were following me on these other platforms, you would know about.

But I am currently doing a wait list for the second cohort that will launch in January.

So it is just a three month cohort.

And again, once you do three months, totally up to you if you want to sign up for another three months.

But I kind of like doing them in those three month blocks to see if you like it.

And just, you know, three months really is a good time frame to kind of get those habits going and things like that.

So if you want to learn more about that, just go to jessicamoorhouse.com/shop.

That’s where you can find all my budget spreadsheets and just FYI, if you want to be part of this accountability group, you do not have to use one of my budget spreadsheets.

I don’t care which strategy, which spreadsheet, which software you use.

You can do whatever the heck you want, but if you are looking for a mechanism to start your own budget, I do have budget spreadsheets available, so make sure to check those out, but it’s not a requirement.

But on jessicamoorhouse.com/shop, that is where you can find the icon you can click on and you can pre-register for the next cohort.

So make sure to check that out.

If you have any questions about it, always happy to answer.

DM me on Instagram or just email me directly, jessicamoorhouse.com.

All right, well, that’s really it for me.

Thank you so much for listening and watching, if you’re watching this on YouTube.

I will be back next Wednesday with a fresh new episode of the More Money Podcast.

Until then, stay safe, you know, do some self care.

You deserve it.

Do a little inventory of what makes you happy and, you know, start doing those things to make you happy.

You know, get a puzzle, start a hobby and do something for you, because often we do a lot for others and forget about ourselves.

So, you know, take care of you.

You deserve it.

OK, that’s it.

Thank you so much.

And I will see you next week.